I have been working at the HotN forums recently on trying to ascribe the nine totem gods in TES V:
Dragon, Bear, Wolf, Fox, Snake, Whale, Owl, Moth, Hawk

to those in Varieties of Faith:
Alduin, Dibella, Mara, Stuhn, Tsun, Jhunal, Ysmir, Shor, Kyne

Updated 3/28/12

Hawk - Kyne
Her symbol in various cultures is a hawk (Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim's Kyne shrines are vaguely bird like)
http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q598/tpl636/Hawk.jpg

Wolf - Mara
Handmaiden to Kyne. Tear-Wife to Shor. Wolf pack => family => Mara
http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q598/tpl636/Wolf.jpg

Snake - Shor
Lorkhan = Sep, who is "The Snake". Serpent is to Dragon as Lorkhan is to Akatosh?
http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q598/tpl636/Snake.jpg

Moth -Dibella
Moths are the same as butterflies. Butterflies are pretty. Moths like flowers, which is Dibella's symbol since Daggerfall. Possible sixual undertones (probosces + flower)
http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q598/tpl636/Moth.jpg

Owl - Jhunal
Jhunal is a god of hermetic orders, which put great emphasis on alchemy, astrology, and theurgy. Owls come out at night to hunt when the moon and stars are out.
http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q598/tpl636/Owl.jpg

Whale - Tsun
Ancient Nordic version of Zenithar, shield-thane to Shor and brother to Stuhn. He guards the Hall of Valor on a whalebone bridge. He also sleeps under a whaleskin tent.
http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q598/tpl636/Fox.jpg

Bear -Stuhn
Stendarr was the chief deity of the Imperial Legion before Talos. Stormcloak generals wear bear skins.
http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q598/tpl636/Bear.jpg

Dragon - Alduin
Obvious
http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q598/tpl636/Dragon.jpg

Fox - Ysmir
The nordic Talos, Dragon of the North, has gone by many reincarnations including the atmoran warrior Hans the Fox, who was one of the 500 Companions. Morihaus afaik when talking with Whitestrake's head mentions his fox totem I think.
http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q598/tpl636/Fox-1.jpg

I think Shor is probably the snake.

Akatosh - Dragon

Mara - Bear

Dibella - Snake

Kynareth - Hawk

Julianos - Owl

Arkay - Fox

Stendarr - Wolf

Zenithar - Whale

Shezarr - Moth

Reasons please...

I have no lore-related reason, at least none I can consciously remember, but Mara as bear seems right to me too.

We have the genders, based on the murals, so we know the Moth, Wolf, and Hawk are the female gods. The hawk is pretty clearly Kyne, since she's more agressive and sky-focused in the Nord version. Mara is a good match for the wolf (social animal with strong pack-bonds, and the mother-wolf archetype) while Dibella as the moth (read: butterfly) seems a good match. Tsun as the whale makes sense (not only for the whalebone bridge, but his strength as well) with Stuhn, his clever brother, as the fox. Jhunal as the owl (wisdom) is overly reliant on our real-world mythos for my taste, but it's a good fit. Shor is the snake: he's described as a snake in some other myths. Orkey as the bear is left, but a bear as a death god isn't so far fetched (and in the murals, Bear has two very conspicuous bear skulls, seems very deathy to me.)

Except bear is very obviously a male on the murals.

That's valid. The "celebrant" is not necessarily the god, however, since Potema's catacombs are full of the wolf queen murals. And it would be pretty weak to equate the moth with a goddess when almost any of the gods would be more appropriate.

But hey, this is the game that turned Kynareth into the hippy-dippy girly goddess, so I wouldn't put it past them. I was in a temple the other day and someone said "Why don't you seek out a priestess of Mara, Dibella, or Kynareth for healing?" Because girlz heal people, get it? So Kynareth goddess of battles becomes Kynareth of little fluffy bunnies.

I never saw that thing as a moth. It was always a butterfly to me, I assumed it was Mara or Dibella (I'm afraid I get the two mixed up as they seem ill-defined in the lore).

Actually I thought that these were probably meant to be obscure old Gods, the kind the Forsworn might dig, y'know? Then again I never noticed that there where nine. Short is defo a snake. I can dig Stuhn as the bear. A bear somehow seems more industrious than the other animals. What else are we struggling with?



Shouldn't you be in the infirmary, dear? I'm sure there is someone to tend too. All this lorey business is for us men

(oh seriously oh god did they say that oh god I'm going to crack open some skulls and pour a libation to Artemis Aeginaea)

Not to mention Kyne apparently needed a male dragon's help to teach men how to shout.

Do dragons even have a gender? Their deep "male" voices could just be the result have having large/bass-y vocal chords.

Maybe Paarthurnax is one of Kyne's daughters...

Odahviing uses male pronouns in reference to Paarth.

Though Y'ffre is male, right? And Kynareth is at least as much Y'ffre as Kyne. Chalk it up to imperialization.

As far as I know, the only girl dragons are Akatosh's Jills. Who are, like, super ultra time-warping mega dragons. I think in MK's mythos they are to Dova what Angels are to us, or something.

Not sure how much stock to put into that. Translating from Draconic to Tamrielic/English is lossy sometimes (see: Bormahu -> Akatosh). Also, with English it's sometimes rational to use a gender-specific pronoun ('he' or 'she') because the non-specific pronoun ('it') can be taken as rude or objectifying when applied to a living creature, even if no specific gender is applicable.

Isn't it a bit weird to emphasize 'old', when most versions of the Eight and Lorkhan can be traced back to different remembrances of the same events at the dawn of time?
Seems to me aberrant theology is more likely to be more recent rather than older

What I mean to ask is, is it really justified to assume even the Forsworn Old Gods refer to something completely different from the ones we're familiar with in other TES cultures?

The Gods themselves may not be especially old, but their worship might be now archaic. Guardian spirits that were important to the people of the Reach once, but now forgotten by most. Tsun is an example of this, or Shezzar to most Imperials.

Clearly we can't assume anything, but we can make educated guesses, informed by the sort of mythology we already have from Beth, and the mythology they are references and playing with. It's a common thing in real world mythology that in time one civilizations' Gods become the next one's goblins. This to me suggests many of the Old Gods may be now seen as merely mischievous spirits, or at best, Daedra.

I don't think Tsun or Shezzar are particularly good examples, considering they are both local interpretations of deities found in most TES cultures.

Morihaus' sister?

Really strange 'cos I've seen a god with Khajiit appearance and Snake totem in one well-known tomb (though I've forgotten the tomb name).

What I find strange is that all of the totem animals get bas reliefs except the whale, who shares it with the fox. The whale seems to be getting attacked by sailors (symbol for aldmeri? Altmer are famous sailors)

The Dragon War calls it a moth, not to mention its mural has moons on it, though i guess a moth is beautiful too.
http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q598/tpl636/Moth.jpg

Would make sense if they represent the twins Tsun and Stuhn(?), one being strong and the other being smart.

Aka - He's a dragon.

Mara - Mama Bear.

Dibella - Something about fertility/virility.

Kynareth - Sky goddess and such.

Julianos - Pretence that Owls are smart.

Stendarr - Wolfpack social dynamics, slow set the pace, yadayada.

Arkay - Nothin' more clever than death.

Zenithar - There's money in whaling.

Shezarr - Something about the idea of cocoons and metamorphosis reminds me of the 'Scarab that becomes the new man' dealie. I suppose then it's less to do with Shezarr per se, and really Talos' totem (hiyo!).

I lol'd.

I would swap stendarr and Arkay (whale/fox Tsun/Stuhn dynamic, plus now Old Knocker is a predator). Otherwise in agreement with Haute.

This makes sense to me.

Butterflies are just a type of moth: there's no way to form a biological distinction.