You're saying it with very little to actually support Morrowind over Oblivion, in this case. They were aiming for the same stuff with both games. Daggerfall is really the only mature one of the group.

Did you go to Paradise, listen to what Camoran said, and read the Commentaries? Camoran's goal was not to just destroy stuff, not at all. Have you any clue how Paradise would be "a vision of the past... and the future" if Camoran just wanted to destroy stuff?

While I'm not clamoring for "mature content" to be included in Skyrim, I feel as though the inclusion of the content would allow the authors and designers of the stories and quests to have a broader creative freedom with portraying the horrifying, disgusting scenes they may come up with.

It should not be used in vast quantities, but rather used as a rare occurrence to really heighten an emotional response.

I don't want to literally be aroused by the game. Most of the internet is already dedicated to that and, frankly, is more proficient at it than TES could ever be.

When I think 'mature content' I think darker world. That means drugs, six, racism and gang culture. But I want it implemented in a way that's actually TES-esque. ie skooma, moon sugar, wenches (for censoring of a better word), discrimination against non natives or beast races and districts that are totally in the grip of gangs (hopefully tied in nicely with the drugs and six trades). None of this stuff should be present on the grand highways of Winterhold. I just think that it would make for seedier poor districts, which add immensely to the believability of the world and, by extension, my enjoyment of said world.

Seti, maybe you're right. I am quite overdue a replay of the Oblivion MQ. Regardless, I still can't play Oblivion without feeling like the entire world was cleaned up just before I turned on my console.

I gotta say though that a lot of the stuff in Morrowind was immature though, like some of the stupid comments people would make, I think one was something about soap and another was about brushing their teeth, it was some stuff a 12 year old would say

I would like to see some !@$% dangling from @#!%$%'s with the ability to swing $%@# decapitating !@#$ with a $@#$@ then finish of the rest of #$#$@ for !@#$$ ##!@!%$ @$$.

But seriously just a realistic approach to fantastical world. If this involves a woman briast feeding an infant for a North American "mature" rating then so be it.

Paradise was really a hell for the "faithful." Getting perpetually killed my Daedra isn't my idea of paradise. I read the Mysterium Sarxes at the imperial library and a translation of one of its statements was "the faithful shall have their reward." The actual reality of paradise is contrary to the Mythic Dawn propaganda used to recruit members; therefore, there is no moral ambiguity involved in the portrayal of the Mythic Dawn.

Yep. Camoran, guy who releases hordes of daedra upon the world, believes Nirn to be Dagon's plane, paradise not as promised. Not so morally grey as rather deluded. Unless I missed something.

But anyway, Seti 18. Let's just settle this saying that Skyrim should be more mature than both Morrowind and Oblivion, neither of which were quite up to scratch in that respect, all right ?

Daggerfall had naked ladies,
Morrowind had sermon twelve. Which includes Vivec [censored] Molag Bal and teaching him how not to *hurt* people when he [censored] them by biting Molag's [censored] Oh, and while that's going on lesser daedra are also doing that and comparing their stuff.
Oblivion had the Lusty Argonian made.


None of these things say "mature" to me. When I hear "mature" in the context of a setting I don't think "Oh yeah! six!" I think gritty, rough, brutal, complex, morally grey, etc. Kind of like Mass Effect except without the wonky six scene nobody cares about. From what we've seen of the art style and how Skyrim is as a place, I would guess this will be the most "mature" Elder Scrolls game yet. And to me that's wonderful.

Edit* sorry for all the censoredness but that is what goes down in sermon twelve.

I can only speak for myself, but I mean six as an erotic theme -- the innuendo of the busty temple maid quest-giver; the shady tavern and bath-house where everyone gets their skooma and beautiful men and women lounge in skimpy robes; the naked ice statues the witch queen keeps in her palace; the topless girls the warlord keeps by his throne -- I don't think sixual acts (or even romances) are things that can be executed well in a single player RPG, and I wouldn't have any interest in playing them even if Bethesda tried.

By violence I mean violence, in its many forms. Remember that nearly every game you've played is full of violence. I don't want my enemies' intestines to hang out when I hit them with a sword, and I certainly don't want Bethesda to introduce a torture mini-game or present horrible injuries in a very realistic way; I just want to feel the crunch as my character's shield catches a bandit in the face, see specks of blood fly as I fail to dodge the troll's fist, see the draugr burn and crumple to the ground as my mage's fire spell engulfs it.

The more powerful and visual and authentic the devs can make that "feel" in gameplay, the better, and the more opportunity to fight a variety of brutal monsters and cruel rivals the better. All of that is violence. It doesn't need to be glorified, but it shouldn't be moralised or turned into a cartoon either.



Have they (and you) asked themselves why? There seems to be an arbitrary assumpion that maturity somehow results in better gameplay or a more enjoyable experience, which seems counter-intuitive to me. Most fantasy at its heart is inherently childish; as they become older in advlthood, most people lose what makes them daydream, and love fantasy; I think the best authors, artists, and game designers are the ones that never really grew up.

six and violence is, on the other hand, inherently mature, or rather it would be in an ideal world. Like all elements of fantasy, sixuality and violence are things we feel close to and can enjoy on quite a primal level, but they're not things -- in the majority of ways, for the majority of people -- that we would want or be able to experience in reality. Fantasy is a wonderful tool of reflection, exploration and fulfilment, but if people feel it must be shackled to reality and boxed in by the insecurities of political correctness, I fear they're missing the point... and most of the fun, too.

This is Skyrim, home of the Nords...
Nords are heavily inspired by the vikings.

What did the vikings do?
-They were raiding monasteries, killing the men and r**ing the nuns...

Skyrim should not have the same approach to mature content as say harry potter...


My opinion is that we should have dismemberment, blood and gore. Also six, prostitution and dope. This to make the right feel of the place...
To clarify i don't want porm, just to know that that stuff actually happens. Blood and gore on the other hand, I don't think there can be too much.

Actually when it comes to the whole six thing. I don't think it needs to be in your face ever. But in there somewhere would be in tune with the concept of TES. The whole you are in this world and could just go off an do anything you want. Including hit some skooma, get jiggy, and then bash a persons head in because they looked funny and you were on a come down. If you wanted... It just existing in the world adds depth. It doesn't want to be like the porm mods, just some representation of those things just in case a player wishes to engage in them.

stumbling through a forest and finding naked witches dancing around a fire at midnight would be quite immersion, lore friendly, and pretty damn good way to set up an interesting quest.

It would be cool if they added the same function as Fallout. You could shoot peoples body parts off, Maybe we can CHOP EM' OFF! hehe that would be fun! !

I think it will be pretty mature since there is a civil war going on. And alot of f-ed up crap happends during civil wars, and wars in general not just fighting but also the possibilities of bands of deserters r*ping and pillaging the countryside and doing other very nasty things. Most of the impacts of a civil war affects the civilian population quite drastically.

Unless of course Betheshda sets the game until after the civil war has ended.

Civil Wars are always the most violent and horrific of wars.


I'd be suprised if Bethesda made it a 'Nice' area...

Why do you need six in a game for? Are you lacking it in real life?

Gee, congratulations on reading the thread! I can tell because you're totally not bringing up an issue that's already been addressed.

Why do you need muscles in a game? Are you lacking them in real life?

:thumbsup:

I get your point, in a way. You should see the books for kids here, they're all about drugs and cancer and whatnot. Quite the fad. Where are the knights and magicians, I say. So yeah, not obsessed about absolute realism and make things gritty for the sake of it.

As for me, I certainly don't want 'grim' aspects to take over the game ; nor do I want it to be realistic in the strictest sense. I just want it to be realistic enough so that my disbelief should be suspended, and so that I should be engrossed by its complexity. Fantasy does need also some minor 'realistic' touches to work : if you take Harry Potter, for instance, the world depicted contains its share of bigotry, and there's some grim persecution of people. It's not essential to the books, but it makes them a bit more interesting than without it - and you end up believing enough to follow that wizards' story.

I hope it's MA as you can better design a game if you aren't worried about putting it in a particular bracket.

The fact that necromancy was legal isn't really much of an excuse, because nobody acted like it was. Necromancers acted simply evil, attacking you on sight, and then Mannimarco comes along and murders one of the MG guild halls too. Other than the fact that necromancy was technically legal, the game never showed any good side of the necromancers. Mages Guild good, necromancers evil. That's what it came down to.

There's lots of info about Dagoth Ur, and (multiple versions of) the events at Red Mountain with Nerevar. You hear different opinions from the dissidents, from Vivec, and even Dagoth Ur himself. Dagoth Ur is not just evil. That Bethesda didn't add the option for the player to join him (due to time constraints, or the problems with dealing with multiple endings that are completely different and having to say that this one isn't canon) doesn't change how he was portrayed.


How does that make any sense?

Oh, absolutely. I'm not suggesting that to seek realism and/or maturity within fantasy is somehow wrong, but rather arguing that, from the perspective that my posts here won't influence Bethesda's game design in any way, there is a perfectly good case for all of these controversial elements to make their way into fantasy in some form. That you and I might have different preferences doesn't change the fact that they're our preferences, and should remain our preferences and not rules we feel we should obey in order to be mature, hardcoe, or whatnot. The same is true for the game designers and writers on Skyrim, hopefully.

And yes, realism in fantasy is essential to create an emotional attachment to a story's characters, because if we can't relate in some way we can't sympathise. But I feel "realism" as a vague goal is over-used and its actual use in most fantasy -- appealing to the human heart and mind with characters and emotional circumstances they relate to -- is forgotten or misunderstood in the neverending search for "gritty dark hardcoe serious story"... which so few people seem to be able to actually write when you ask them to.

What game were you playing? I was playing a game that had women posing as prosttutes to rob men, dungeons with bodyparts, heads on pikes in oblivion, dripping blood, dismembered bodies, traps that would smash you to the ceiling against pikes, blades swinging out of walls... I really don't see the point of this post honestly.

It doesn't, but don't tell him that.

I don't think the question is mature content or better gameplay. Why would it have to be one of the two? I really don't think mature content would exclude great gameplay.

I'm all for anything that will give the game a more realistic feel, and if it happens to offend the delicate sensibilities of the weak minded, even better.