I just wanted to start this discussion to see everyone else's opinion on stealth in the elder scrolls series.

My main characters have always been thieves or magi type. In the days of being obsessed with Oblivion a month or so after its release my main character was a high level assassin.

I loved this character and loved the fact I could sneak around places. However, I always felt there were severe flaws in the mechanics of how stealth worked. I'm hoping some of these issues are being considered in Skyrim.

First. You're underground in a cave with little or no light and you're in stealth mode. You can see an ogre (or insert creature here) in the distance. You can see it plain as day, but... even though you're sitting right in the middle of a 5 ft wide passage, you can't be detected as you're 'sneak' skill is over 30 and ... you're crouched?. I can appreciate the dynamics and reasons behind this, but I do hope the way the character moves has been thought about.

Take games like splinter cell: conviction whereby the character actually places his back up against the wall/car/object and slides along fluidly. This i could believe with regards to a cave dwelling creature not being able to detect me. I see something in the distance... it catches a glimpse of me and suddenly I hit the stealth and the character then reacts with the environment around. Whether it's back against a wall, back against a tree, hiding behind a boulder etc. and the creature goes to investigate. The actual motions of the character isn't anything new it's something that's been around in games for several years. Also, with back pressed against object/wall, I think this would be fantastic at incorporating the sneak attack with a dagger as it unsuspectingly walks past.

Also, whilst we're on the subject of stealth, I hope the NPC's react to trespassing a bit more realistically. If I sneak into Dorothy's house at 3.30 in the morning and i get caught, i want there to be repercussions! chase me around with a frying pan, attack me with a fork! do something to chase me out of your home and alert the guards until I manage to sneak away, or beat the old hag down to silence her! Not just... "you're not supposed to be in here".. "ah... you're right... sorry, I'll leave"... "thanks!"

Anyway, always loved the series, can't wait for this one. Just thought I'd throw my 2c about the stealth!

Anyone else agree? or is it only me that seems to like being chased with kitchen utensils?

Yes, more realistic stealth would be awesome. Still, it should be based primarily on your characters skill, not your skill as a player.

my ideas so far to make the stealth better is. Make the guard non-telepathic entities and add the climb over obstacle feature like in Call of Duty so that we can have some kind of better level desing for every player =D

New stealth system is critical.

No doubt. What I meant though is the higher your sneak skill the less likely you are to be detected against a wall for example. The dynamics remain the same, but the motions/actions of characters should be altered to reflect a more realistic 'hiding' mechanism.

Give me realistic sneaking, throwing knives, throat slitting, neck snapping, potion-grenades, and cross bows. Infinite stealth potential there.

Also infinitely overpowered stealth.

How about using cover to an advantage. Just crouching behind a wall is fine, but I want to be able to press against the wall, or hide in a box/under someones bed.

Maybe she'll send Toto after you.

Man, I don't need another coked up 80's band after me.

Anway. I really would like to see a sharp divide between Assassin and Warrior. A huge sneak attack bonus would be countered by even small amounts of armor making sneaking harder. In turn, being caught without armor puts you in a precarious position. You should have a pretty good chance of killing even a fully armored person (think knife in the neck, between plates) but if you fail to take down your target, get ready to run, and hide.

That's the biggest thing they need to work on, is "re-hiding," or being able to sneak again after being detected, obviously NPCs will be looking in a generalized area, and if you're not hidden extremely well, or far enough away that they wander past you, you will be found.

Nothing was worse than 100% sneak and never getting detected while sword swinging into an enemy and neither he nor his other bandit buddy realize what's going on. As long as you keep swinging that sword. Even more easy with the bow, never leave sneak means never being detected in a dark area. Just keep firing and they will never get close to you to find you. I even push ogre's around rooms in sneak mode, literally pushing them out of my hallway to move on. So yeah, fix it more!!!!

yes also it was ridiculous to see that i couldnt kill a sleeping peasant with my steel dagger while i was snealing, there should be high criticals from small weapons ( daggers, thworing knives?? ) while in sneak mode, and more moves, like throat slicing, neck breaking and the like.

and i agree with more realistic movements like placing his back againts the walls and stealthy movements.

The last part here is a must.

Snake lol.

That, absolutely. Plenty of games out there that test your skill as a gamer, RPGs should be about development of character skill, not the player's ability to hit the right combination of buttons.

I think a good way to make ANY system in ANY game feel great is modularity and options.

For example, lets take these totally different concepts:
traps
locking doors/jamming doors
entering cells from windows
climbing

But, yet, when we apply them, we see how they can work together. A thief could climb a castle wall, enter a room through a window, go through the castle, and if they are spotted they could run into a room, lock it or jam it, and place a trap in front while they loot. When the guards finally get the door open (either by bashing it or having a key), they run will run into the trap, giving you time to escape through a window, back down the castle wall. And, hell, that's not even including poisons, grappling hooks, or throwing weapons (that can also be used in melee!). Imagine having a throwing knife coated in a slowing/paralyzing poison. You could stab enemies with it, and if a target is too far away, simply press attack + grab, flip the knife over, and throw it right at them to apply the poison at a range.

Quite dastardly, if I do say so myself.

I don't think stealth should mean you can never be detected (even at 100%), but I certainly hope that if you're in the shadows and you shoot someone they atleast know the general direction it came from and attempt to find you.

Like I mention, this isn't anything knew, it's incorporated into quite a few recent games.

Your ability to remain hidden should also be affected by what you do. Carry a torch in a dark dungeon or start repairing your equipment should pretty much nullify stealth. But stealth should also go further, allowing you to evade and hide.

I would love for a more intricate stealth system. I like the idea of being able to enter/exit buildings through windows for a more stealthy infiltration or escape. I also like the idea of using walls or other objects to conceal yourself (like pressing your body against a wall and creeping along, peeking around corners, crouching behind a desk or bed, etc.). Stealth kills would also be awesome, but there would need to be a balanced system for it; i.e. you shouldn't be able to stealth kill any NPC that is equal to or greater than your own skill level, and there should be some restrictions based on Sneak, Agility, Blade, etc.

I would also love if they added grappling hooks for scaling walls, and some silent ranged attacks like a poison blow dart gun, to cripple your target from a distance so you can close in silently for a quick kill.

There was a mod for Oblivion that incorporated grappling hooks really well. It was restricted by length and could only grapple onto certain objects (i.e. wood). Was absolutely brilliant for a thief.

Definitely would be awesome. I also like alot of the ideas above

That's my biggest problem with TES so far. I love playing stealthy characters, but I don't wanna be able to sneak around in full glass armor. No armor would be perfect, but then a few hits kill me. I should be able to evade attacks. Evasion is a big part of stealth, imo.

Oblivion had this awkward back flip move if you had high enough acrobatics, but it just looked weird and can be replaced with a much smaller evasion maneuver I think.

Something that is like what was incorporated into Assassins Creed would be good.

What would be super awesome is if we could scale city walls and sneak in if say... we had a wanted level.. Or along those lines... scale a building to sneak in through a balcony?