in daggerfall the king sends you on a mission to the lord in daggerfall, on your way your ship sinks and you manage to swim to a cave, whey you are out of the cave you have like 7 days in-game walk to that town. (i think at least a 7 day walk, took 7 day to fast-travel)

I believe TES is an open ended free roaming choice driven RPG.
That's all I have to contribute to this thread.

Background Story-Wise, Daggerfall had it. Whenever you start the game, you can check your character's background from childhood to the day when he got asked by Uriel Septim to help him.

You see, you answer background questions during character creation that, aside from giving bonuses, also shape your guy's background. In the end, you always end up having a meeting with Uriel Septim, but how you manage to get to meet him is always different. You performed an heroic act by saving Imperial Guards from bandits, you rescued one of Uriel Septim's followers, you stole a precious item from the treasury and caught the attention of the Emperor, etc.

Just like in Dragon Age, whatever background you choose, you'll always end up joining the Grey Wardens.

It is a very cool feature that I'd love to be back in future Elder Scrolls titles. It really helped in roleplaying your character. And I'd prefer text-based, since Dragon Age's backgrounds imposed severe limits. (Yet they were nicely done)

Daggerfall had my favorite beginning of any TES game, but I have to disagree about the pre-written character history sheet. That's something I like to write myself, not have the game decide for me.

Its a real limit too
No matter what you choose as a background you're fated to be the hero who helps out the Emperor

why don't you guys just ask god to create another earth and go play it! :rofl: you guys want an infinate game with different choices at every turn! I'm not much a computer wiz, but I'm sure that takes LOADS of time and work to create, even distributed across a whole company! xD

My apologies for wanting a better game. I don't expect a completely customizable alternate reality - I just expect a competent simulation of it.

Well there's a game I know of that will let you make any choice you want and have to face the varying consequences of what you did. It's this sweet little thing called real life.

Nothing's really stopping you from taking a five-hour road trip on a whim, or breaking into your neighbor's home and tossing a pie in his face. Well aside from the fact that you can't really undo anything you've already done. Then again, if a random somebody tossed a pie in my face and proceeded to hand me a thousand bucks on the spot, he'd end up being my best friend.

Yeah, real life is cool and all but the AI svcks.

The concept at the heart of this discussion is one part roleplaying game and one part power fantasy. One cannot cast magic in real life, nor can they save worlds or conquer villains. Life is alot less "free-form" than most people think, when coupled with advlt responsibility. We play games to avoid this.

I was, er, being sarcastic. I thought the whole pie-tossing part would give that away...

You can't palm off the Amulet of Kings to the nearest Merchant and wander off on your merry way

I gues people feel a greater sense of freedom with Morrowind because there is less story impetus to go straight through the main quest. One of my biggest annoyances with the game is that in story terms it is always incredibly pressing that you continue with the next step of the story otherwise Daedra are going to explode everywhere, horses will rain from the sky and every other Agronian will be covered with blue polka-dots... Compare this to Morrowind's which literally tells you to bugger off and explore. I have the same problem with Mass Effect, I never do any of the trivial little side quests and things available because I'm an army man trying to save the galaxy and don't have time to rescue the kitty-kat from the tree or punch the creepy guy who's staring at someone's sister.

Your character is always the same person (thank goodness) but you can play different people in different games. Just make up a different character. Personally, I'd hate to make up an alter-ego in a game only to have it get messed up by having another potentially unlikable character forced upon me.

Always starting out with the same beginning (as a prisoner/in jail)- this I have to agree with. The "prisoner" thing alone has been done to death. Something new, please. Having a choice on how your character begins the game would be excellent. Very excellent. Even if I'm making up a new character from one of the TES games to the other, I like to use similar names and think that they're the same people. Don't have to go into all this detail about the hero of the previous game, it'd just be nice if there was an optional beginning where you're treated as someone familiar. Simple. At the very least, just give me some options.

I also agree how quests tend to be the same. Previous TES titles had various ways of doing a particular quest, even if one of the quests had just a few ways of doing it. Why, in Morrowind alone you didn't have to help the god-king Vivec. There was a backdoor way to beat the game just in case you felt like a bad mofo and killed him. Why Bethesda would cheapen the experience with "their next big product" is beyond me.

Will we ever get a game where you have different backgrounds? We already have. That was Daggerfall. Daggerfall covered your character's history from their very childhood and there were many different backgrounds. The one you got was based on the kind of character you made up. Always started the game the same way, though... having to escape from Privateer's Hold. Every TES game that I know of has always started in the exact same way-- having to escape from some kinda dungeon. Morrowind was the only one that was different. It broke the mold. Unfortunately, Bethesda apparently didn't see Morrowind's success as a good thing. At least that's what it feels like.

I hardly see any difference here. In Morrowind, you're told at the start to go meet someone and bring a package to him, in Oblivion, you're told at the start to meet someone, and bring an amulet to him. In either case, you can choose to completely ignore the task that you're told to do and just do whatever you want. In either case, you get a sequence at the start where you're confined to a specific area until you've done what you must, and this area is used for tutorial purposes. The main difference here is that the tutorial in Oblivion is somewhat longer, and is actually effective as a tutorial as it gives you a chance to apply what you were just told in a practical situation, which I would not say is a bad thing. You're much more likely to remember what the tutorial tells you if you actually get to use it afterwards, and what's the point of having a tutorial if it's not going to help anyone learn how to play the game? If you're going to have a tutorial in you're game, you should put some effort into actually making it helpful, if you're not, you should just not bother and spare players the annoyance of needing to go through it every time they start a new game, of course, that annoyance could be easily avoided if they just let you skip the tutorial in the first place... Also, while both tutorials tell you what to do from the start, Oblivion tells you as soon as you finish the tutorial that you're goal is to take the Amulet of Kings to Jauffre because he knows where to find the Emperor's last son. Morrowind just tells you to speak to Caius and deliver a coded message to him, you don't find out that you're supposed to join the Blades and work for him until you've done that, and it doesn't tell you that you're actually supposed to fulfill the Nerevarine Prophecies until later, but that's a narrative issue rather than a gameplay one. Either method provides you the same amount of freedom as either way you can choose to ignore the task you're given, Oblivion just tells you what the basic premise of the story is from the start while Morrowind keeps it mysterious until later.

But I'd say having backgrounds like in Dragon Age would actually be more limiting, because then you're forced to choose from a number of predetermined backgrounds, and depending on the type of character you want to play, your options might be limited, if you have a choice at all. In the Elder Scrolls series, you can freely say you're character is whoever you want to be, usually, the game starts off with you in prison, but never tells you who you're character is or why you're there. That's up to you to decide. If Bethesda did decide to do such things in the Elder Scrolls, it would have to be entirely optional. Now giving the player multiple options of how to start the game might be nice, that would offer thwe player more options, and would also avoid the annoyance of playing through the same introduction over and over again. I'm perfectly fine with starting out in prison, but it would be nice if you could be offered other options as well.

But all things said, though. Any game is bound to limit what you can do to an extent, that's just the way things are. For one thing, a game needs to have rules, rules are what define the game and ensure that it's played the way it's meant to be played, without rules, you could just make things up as you go along. Moreover, in a video game, there is a limit to how many potential choices and how much content can actually be programmed into the game, the game can't possibly allow you to do everything you could possibly think of simply because the game can't have that many options. Maybe the designers would have wanted to add another option but due to limitations of technology, space, budget or time, they simply couldn't, or maybe you thought of something the designers didn't. But in the end, the closest thing to complete freedom that one can have in a video game right now is through modding, in which case, you still don't have complete freedom in the game, but you can change things from outside the game if you so choose, thus making it possible to do things you want to do but that the doesn't allow.

If you want complete freedom in an RPG, you have to play a pen and paper game. There, the only limits to your freedom are what you can think of and what the GM or DM or whatever the term the game you're playing uses will allow, and creative GMs might be able to find ways to keep players from derailing whatever story they're trying to tell while not making them feel like they're being forced down a linear path. Sure, there are still rules, of course. But unlike a video game, there's nothing really stopping those rules from being changed to suit the needs of the game, except what the other players will allow. In a video game, no matter how much freedom the game promises, some limitations are guarenteed. The Elder Scrolls is no exception. So, yes, the series does not offer complete freedom, but it still offers a lot more than most games in existence. Does that mean it couldn't offer more? No, it does not. There are still ways players could be more free in the series, quests are a good example. You have a lot of freedom with creating a character, and with deciding where you go, what quests you do, what order you do them in, and such, there's nothing stopping you from simply not doing a quest if you don't like it. But once you've accepted a quest, you usually don't have many options. The game usually makes you do quests a certain way even if you'd prefer to go with another solution, you're only other option is generally to ignore a quest objective, which generally means the quest remains permanently active and you don't get the reward. I would like to see more than one option in how to solve quests, which could potentially change how the quest impacts the world, your rewards, and what quests you get afterwards. For example, in Morrowind, in the Balmora Mages Guild, Ajira and the Bosmer enchanter (I can never remember those Bosmer names, except for the names of the ones everyone loves to hate like Fagoth or Geanor.) have a bet going on, and Ajira asks you to help her win the bet, fair enough, her quests were pretty boring and not very rewarding, but theyu were also very simple, and I don't expect to undertake an epic quest to determine the fate of the guild in Morrowind, with valuable and powerful artifacts as a reward, as the first few quests I'll do in the guild. But why couldn't I help the Bosmer? Not that I'd want to, mind you, like all Bosmer, I hate that one, and wouldn't want to help her if I can help someone else in her stead, but I also don't want to play as a Dunmer either, but that doesn't mean I feel the option to do so should not be in the game. The nice thing about options is that, aside from adding replay value, they let you do things in the game in a way closer to what you want, and I'm sure there are those who would be happy to help the enchanter, I would not have objected if we had the option to do so. Of course, this could close off Ajira's future quests and open new ones, which could require you to help the enchanter with her work or sabotage Ajira's research, the quests could have soul gems, scrolls or enchanted items as a reward then. In terms of where to go, what kind of character to play, and so on, the games already do pretty good, but the freedom to decide who to side with or hoq to solve quests is something I'd like to see expanded upon, and your choices in this regard should have concequences, sometimes closing off options where appropriate and opening new ones, because while choices allow you to do what you want in the choice, without concequences, those choices are nothing more than decorations.

So essentially, it is only the start of the game that is a problem for you? Because in Morrowind, when you are given the package for Caius, you not only do not have to deliver it to him, but if you place it on a freshly killed body, the option to give it to him disappears in three days. Forever.

Once you are released from the prison ship in Morrowind, the world is your oyster. You can have that freedom that you said was lacking, you just have to:

1) stop approaching Morrowind as some sort of linear game. You don't have to do anything unless you chose to, save for defending yourself from attacks, and even this, you can avoid by simply running away. Too many friends I know who approach Morrowind after games such as Neverwinter or Everquest, often feel almost compelled to address every task, request, or quest they are given by the NPC's. Never even thinking once that they not only don't have to do them immediately, but truthfully, never have to do them at all.

2) be creative enough to treat the character not as "the character", but as a living entity. Don't be afraid to stop worrying about the numerical statistics and skillset, and just walk, talk, eat, sleep under the stars or on the roof if you wish.

3) be honest enough to accept that whatever failings your character suffered in stealing, talking, crafting, fighting, or anything else, was not an "inherent flaw with the game", but perhaps a flaw in how you are approaching the playing of it.

Someone here has the greatest signature about Morrowind. "You don't "beat" Morrowind, you experience it." That is the honest truth about it. This is especially so for those of us who have multiple mods added to increase that experience.

I have created characters who did the main quests, and then set out to be a wandering hero. I had another character take the package for Caius and chucked it in the river Odai, and spent the money he was given on a courtesan. One character, a very nasty one, spent most of his time living as if the laws and rules didn't apply to him. Had a female character that just hunted beasts of all kinds, and sailed all over the known and unknown world. To date, I have never created a vampire character yet, but am intrigued in playing it good, with only traveling at night, seeking out other vampires, and adopting the mindset to only feed from the rude or the sick.

Could Morrowind be more "free"? Sure. The thousands of mods for the computer game show that. There are even mods that change the beginning.

I have watched the Mrs. play Dragon Age and I cannot understand why anyone would still insist that the game even remotely offers freedom, when nearly ALL roads taken lead to different facets of the same ending, and worse, the ENDING CREDITS. Ask anyone here who has played Morrowind from the first selling of it, and none will tell you, "Oh, yeah, I beat that game and saw the credits roll." There are none. Even ending the main quest, is just the tip of the iceberg. You still have a land to heal. You still have restocking evils. Hell, even some here when I was in the lore section assumed that when the MQ was complete, they just knew that the blight for everyone was over because your character was cured. But if they had just once gone back to Divayth Fyr, he would tell them that sadly, such was not the case. Only you were cured, not everyone. But because many still play an open ended game as linear, never going back just to talk or investigate, they miss these facets that let you know that what you think you know, isn't the reality of the situation in the game.

That's why Morrowind has spoiled me forever. Every RPG now, I try doing the opposite of what I'm asked, first, only to be stopped by a wall or a text box or an unkillable NPC. Then I'm like, "ok, it's one of these."

And I just go where I'm told until I get bored of the story.

Theres always tes v

I agree with this.

In addition, I think Morrowind's briefer, sketchier introduction also worked in its favor. Morrowind only told me I'd been in prison and then tossed me into the game to do what I wanted. It was easy to roleplay that my character was just stepping off a boat from somewhere else.

For instance I once roleplayed two sister characters, one who was released from prison and one who was not. The one that was released from prison did about half of the main quest. At that point I recreated her as an NPC and - literally picking a cell at random with my hand over my eyes - dropped her somewhere in the game world. Her sister then came to Vvardenfell from Skyrim to search for her. When playing the second sister I simply ignored any dialog pertaining to prison. If I tried this in Oblivion I think I'd have to use an alternate start mod.

You see, that is immersive genius. I love the fact that you played two sisters, and the inclusion of one through the game as an NPC, exactly why Morrowind is different each time one plays it.

Awesome. Simply, Awesome.
One of my dream Morrowind utilities would be one that takes a savegame, looks anything that has changed compared to the vanilla version (Dead NPCs, looted containers, quests done, etc.), then apply those changes to another save game.
I always wanted to play two characters adventuring at the same time on Vvardenfell.

But you did something similar, but only by randomly placing your other character in Vvardenfell. That is really nice.

I once did something similar. I was roleplaying a Redguard whose job was a royal guard in Sentinel, in Hammerfell. He developped a relationship in secret with one of the princesses. Unfortunately, someone saw and my character was banished from Hammerfell, never to return. He ventured to Vvardenfell aboard a prison boat to start his life anew.

I created the princess as a follower in the editor and asked my brother to place her in any cell he wanted. It took me a long time to find her, and was really a surprise because I forgot about her totally.

The impetus exists only in the mind of the player. You may not be able to palm off the Amulet to a local merchant and forget about it forever, but you could always ignore it. Or concoct a reason for your character to hold on to it as a keep-sake. Either/Or.

And, when it comes to the story pressing you to complete the main quest, I think the blight storms and the rise of Dagoth Ur represent a pretty sizeable threat. It may not be an Oblivion invasion but, locally, it's just as imperitive that it be resolved as soon as possible. What does one do upon discovering that s/he may be the reincarnation of a Chimer hero? Hunt rats for the Fighter's Guild? No - they're going to settle the score with Ur. In my view, both games offer the player the option to forget the main quest - the only difference is that the Quest Trinket in Oblivion cannot be thrown away. You can even deliver the Amulet, if you want. Deliver it, and forget about Martin. The Oblivion Invasion realy only begins once Martin is rescued. Neither game applies any sort of penalty to you for forgetting the main quest. If you don't like the amulet in your posession, deliver it as a sign of good will towards the late Emporer and get on with your travels.

I also agree with this.

Personally, I considered my main character in Morrowind to be the same person from Daggerfall. A friend of the emperor who does things to fix problems. A prisoner who came here on a boat? That's just the cover story to keep things under wraps. Since there's no TV and no 9 o'clock news, just coming to a different region with a fake background would make sense.

Was hard to do in Oblivion with Uriel Septim right there, acting like he'd never seen you before. Kinda took away some of the fun and imagination for me.

Back when people were making suggestions for Bloodmoon, I suggested that they make it so that, if you have more than one character, and you're playing one, the other will appear as an NPC to talk to, on the spot of your most recent save game, wearing all the appropriate equipment, with dialogue pertaining to current quests.

This reminded me of that. I still think I would like to see a game do that someday.

If you are searching for a game based on choices, then try the Gothic series and Risen, these games are completely choice free !

There are also roleplaying considerations. Oblivion's beginning makes it much clearer that the land is threatened which should be enough to motivate the vast majority of characters to do something about it. You could ignore it at first, dismissing it as a mere assassiantion, but as soon as you aproach Kvatch it becomes rather clear that the amulet needs to be delivered and soon.

While Morrowind's crisis might have been just as important it only became clear how important it was when you progressed through the MQ. If you didn't touch the MQ your character could remain completly ignorant of the whole Nerevarine issue. When you first meet Caius you even have the dialogue option to refuse to listen to his orders in which case he tells you to leave his house and don't come back unless you change your mind.

Another thing is that the crisis in Oblivion is much more obvious. Daedra gates are opening and an entire city has recently been destroyed by daedra. Contrast that to Morrowind where people talk about sleepers and the blight, but while all this is serious there is no immediate and obvious crisis as such.