» Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:50 am
I have wanted to know this for over 5 years now...
I am an SCA member and very well experienced in medieval heavy weapons martial artist. And I was amazed at how you guys knew to put Axe and Mace in the same skill category. Most uninitiated people would not know this and find it very strange, how did you guys come to this decision for your game?
I will cut and past in my response to a a question about this subject a few years ago. It is cool if it is too much for you to take the time to read. The bottom line is that medieval weapons are about weight, balance and where you hold the weapon and NOT about cutting, unlike the light weight weapons of the Asian martial arts. Unfortunately almost all the games made in the last 30 years have been under the Asian combat template (meaning light weapons, acrobatics and light armor) even if the game was about western European Knights in 60 pounds of armor using 10 pound shields and 4 pound swords....
Skip the following unless you are interested in the physics of heavy weapons and heavy armor and how the axe and mace are really the same kind of weapon.
"mmmm... I do not want to dwell on this subject of armor verses weapons beyond what I will say in this post because the arguments on this have gone on for over 30 years in the SCA as well as other historical research groups.
The bottom line is that there has always been an arms race between Armor and Weapons. New designs for weapons were invented to defeat the current armor and then new designs for armor were invented to defeat those weapons. This would happen over thousands of years with some dramatic changes as little as 100 years or so apart.
Chain, maille, or chain maille or chainmaille, in the 1600s it was just called Mail. I like to say chain mail, so I will.
Early forms of chain mail were only butted together at the ends of the rings, so it was surprisingly easy for a thrust to spread the links and penetrate the fighter's body. Then later in history chain mail was riveted at the ends to try to prevent this.
Therefore you only need to pick the right century to win your argument or the wrong one to lose it.
I design my mods based on my 30 years of research in the SCA. This includes full contact combat in real life using realistically weighed and balanced weapons (less the sharp edge) and full armor that could weight as much as 60 pounds. Plus lab testing using various anolysis equipment from a variety of industries, and of course comparing historical records (translated manuals written by the actual instructors of the time period) when we could get our hands on them. 30 years ago it was not as easy as it is today. My expertise being in the technology that the SCA focuses on (western European 1600s).
The butted chain mail is what all combatants in the SCA are considered to be wearing for purposes of evaluated the effectiveness of blows from weapons. As such the power of the attack (the momentum that is transferred from the weapon to the target) is primarily what matters not what weapon you are using. Some exceptions once include an axe or mace that "killed" with a hit to the upper thigh were this is only incapacitating to the leg if a sword is used. What instantly killed and and what was incapacitating with death to come latter is another debatable subject that has been unresolved for many years.
The following will be surprising for many people because unfortunately the medieval Knight in shining armor of movies and video games has had an Asian template (high carbon razor sharp weapons and very lightweight armor designed to prevent slashing) forced on them. Thus producing very unrealistic expectations and erroneous ideals for this kind of combat.
Western European 1600's Armor is really about svcking up the momentum of the weapons to prevent the damage that would otherwise be inflicted to the body. So the heavier the armor the less damage would pass to your body. Chain was more popular than plate because it was more flexible "pound for pound" than other types of armor.
Most edge weapons (swords and axes and such) quickly became blunt weapons on the battle field as the edge of the low carbon steal (unlike modern steel) would dull in a short time of hammering against armor, shields and other weapons.
This is one of the things that just amazed me about the Oblivion developers, how did they know to put the axe in the same category as the mace? It is not hard to see why the uninitiated would logically think it was just a shortcut on the part of programmers. However an axe in a typical Western European 1600's medieval battle is in fact just another type of mace. The only difference between medieval melee weapons (when used on armored opponents) is the balance, weight and were you hold the weapon to take various advantages of the balance of the weapon.
WARNINGBelow is detailed technical information you can skip. My basic point is made in the above text. But if you are interested in additional information concerning how an axe and a mace are essentially the same category of weapon in medieval combat please read on?
The following is a very brief and very simplified treatment on weapons physics. This is just to give you a very general idea of how weapon Length, Speed and Damage all balance out in the melee weapons.
This is Copy Written material from my book, somewhat adapted for my Oblivion moding as part of my Oblivion combat mod "Bible." So please do not copy, reprint or otherwise plagiarize it.
See the book here:
http://www.spookyfx....book/tromp.html
Kinetic Energy is the important realm of physics when talking about weapons with very high-speed movement such as bullets. However with slower moving heavy weapons mass and velocity are basically of equal importance in determining the physical effects on the target and how the weapon "handles" while getting to the target.
Momentum = Mass x Velocity
Momentum is the property of a moving object to continue moving. It is the combination of mass and movement. A slow moving, very massive body and a rapid moving, light body can have the same momentum. Momentum (like all energy) can only be transported and/or transformed from one place to another and from one state to another.
If your 1 pound dagger swings with 10 units of speed and your 10 pound mace swings with 1 unit of speed they will both result in about the same damage in the first moment of contact. However the heavy hammer is much harder to stop moving, so it continues to create damage in a slightly longer duration than the dagger. However a faster moving weapon makes more use of "Impulse Force".
So to make things simple, in my mods I just try to make 10 hits with a dagger results in about the same damage as 1 hit with a mace (all other factors being the same).
A heavy mass at rest will offer resistance to start movement. Once it is moving it will offer resistance to stop moving, This means that a weapon will start slowly and progress slowly to faster speeds when starting at rest from a dead stop. For a sword to reach optimum speed, a sufficient amount of distance must be traveled. This distance will be determined by such factors as the mass of the weapon, the mechanical leverage and the power applied to the weapon to accelerate the tip.
A 10 pound mace takes 10 times the "time" to complete a swing as a 1 pound dagger if all other factors are the same.
Using two hands on a weapon allows you to place the fulcrum and effort points of control further away from each other. This results in better control leverage and less effort in directing the weapons tip movement on very long or very top heavy weapons. Using only one hand on a weapon results in the fulcrum and effort control points being only a few inches away from each other.
However the one handed weapon has the freedom to swing much faster, thus producing more Impulse force when it hits.
The arms are primarily used to GUIDE the sword blow and act as the transmission device to bring power from the body into the target in the same way a ridding crop snaps out to move momentum from the large heavy base to the smaller lighter tip.
I first discovered this while doing kinetic energy tests with different weapons in the 1980s. I was amazed to discover that the kinetic energy from a two-handed weapon was not significantly higher than from a one-handed weapon of the same weight and length. This may be hard to understand, because most of your experience may tell you that you normally are hit harder with a two-handed weapon. This is because most two-handed weapons have much more mass and a longer lever for a blade, and NOT because your second hand is contributing that much more power to the shot.
Remember that using two hands on a weapon allows you to place the fulcrum and effort points of control further away from each other. This extra control leverage contributes a great deal to better handling of the tip movement. However the extra pushing force just from the leverage is almost insignificant for impact because it is so slow. As such, on it's own this additional (but slow) pushing force creates very poor impulse (less efficient transfer of force).
If the weapon is not very long or not very tip heavy, using 2 hands to wield that weapon is not the most efficient way to use your pair of hands. In fact it can even slow down the tip speed of some weapons unless you hold it with a "baseball" grip where your hands are touching each other. This is because your arms cannot move in opposite directions with enough agility to keep up with the possible final tip speed at the end of your weapon swing. This is not so much a problem with the longer 2 handed weapons such as the Claymore because the longer lever (from the fulcrum to the tip of the weapon) creates more than enough extra speed from the mechanical advantage to compensate for your second hand slowing down the effort side of the weapon.
If you have a short but top-heavy weapon you may choose to wield it either way depending on your desired results.
Two hands on this kind of weapon (such as a 2 handed AXE) will give you much more initial speed and weapon agility but will greatly slow down the final tip speed resulting in less impact. However this additional agility allows you to recover the weapon back into your ready position quicker and more accurately for defense and allows you to start your second shot sooner.
It is possible to slide one hand down into a baseball grip or switch from 2 hands to one hand in mid swing in order to try to trade a little more power for a little less agility and less recovery speed.
One hand on this kind of weapon (such as a MACE) will give you a greater final tip speed resulting in more impact force but you will loose agility and the return motion back into your ready position will be much slower. This could leave you open to a counter attack for a longer time and result in fewer number of attacks per second than would be possible if you were using 2 hands. It is possible to switch from one hand to two hands during the return to your ready position in order to try to gain some agility for defense. But the extra work required to place and remove the second hand will add more time to initiate the following one handed attack.
Most real melee weapons must land several inches down from the tip of the weapon (on the sweet spot) to hit effectively. On faster moving weapons that use more speed than weight (like a sword) this is the center of percussion. on slower moving weapons that are top-heavy and use more weight than speed (like an axe or MACE) it is the center of gravity."
