Yes I know how much it was influenced but that doesn't make it DnD especially since people worked hard to get away from the DnD influences, just because it was DnD influenced doesn't mean the DnD alignment chart works for TES.

So do you mod "Grelod the Kind" to be "Grelod the Cruel" and things like that?

Doesn't mean they don't in this particular case either.

I got a giggle out of that.

Nope, because there is irony there. But still the DnD alignment chart is not acceptable to be used EVERYWHERE even if the thing was influenced by DnD. The whole reason for the alignment chart was to add onto the mechanics of DnD and even nowadays it's pretty useless in dnd unless you play old school.

But you said you don't accept adjectives being used to describe someone unless they fit the most literal definition of the adjective. You had no clause about irony. Therefore, if we go by the literal meaning of your words, you can't accept "Grelod the Kind."

See the problem of only holding words to their most literal meanings?

And as I added to a different post right after you responded to it:

Remember, I wasn't talking about applying those alignments to anything in TES. I was merely pointing out that there are things described as "Chaotic" that don't fit the literal definition you were posting and basing as the reason Daedra can't be considered "Chaotic."

Oh please. Are you really using D&D to define the word "chaotic"?

http://i.imgur.com/rKw8RYV.jpg an excerpt from 3.5e Player's Handbook.

"Chaos implies freedom, adaptability and flexibility. On the downside, chaos can include recklessness, resentment toward legitimate authority, arbitrary actions and irresposibility."

This is not an official definition of chaos. Seriously. If you intend to use it as an equivalent of a dictionary definition, you need to make it very clear before you start the discussion.

I'll give you something better, Colonel. From Merriam-Webster Dictionary:

chaos

Btw, if we decide to go with the D&D definition, then you're right: daedra seem awfully chaotic. Aedra are bound by the laws of this world, daedra are not (or to a lesser extent). They are flexible, they create change. They do what they feel like doing. They resent authority - unless they're dremora, their orderly hierarchy is rather lawful. I'd also say that Dibella is somewhat chaotic.

Are we applying the character alignment of DnD here... or are we just applying the general definition of causing chaos?

If the former, then I don't really care for another game's characterizations. If the latter, then I would say that I don't see the Daedra as being chaotic but as being http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaordic and thrive on creating chaos.

It appears so

We already covered this in the original thread, and what I had said which caused this entire rabbit trail is that daedra are "agents of chaos." Jyggalag included. His March was a terrifying imposition of order, willy nilly and uncaring of what it destroyed. He's Anuic the way a giant cosmic bulldozer is.

The entire discussion is based on Cider! being unwilling to engage in a debate without resorting to mincing words, harping on the same irrelevant points over and over, demanding evidence as a means to ignore what other people say, and just generally not cottoning on. I'd even allow for my original statement to be imprecise or flawed, if someone would engage it with a bit more thoughtfulness. As it is, I'm not even going to bother because any kind of decent discussion is doomed.

I'm doing no such thing. I'm merely pointing out that words like chaotic are used to describe things even if they don't fit the literal definition of the word.

I hadn't seen the original thread, but judging by your description and how this one is going... I don't think I missed too much.

http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1458919-daedra-and-the-next-great-war/ you go. The thread originally had nothing to do with this debate, but spiraled out of control.

Ooooh. That thread. I stopped paying attention to it when the OP declared none as a non-valid response to the poll.

Well, I'm satisfied. REL_Dovahkiin is a boss.

I'm still not accepting using the D&D alignment chart as proof they are chaotic.

I wouldn't say they're chaotic themselves, but they can cause it. For example, like how Sanguine used the Champion of Cyrodiil to cast a spell to make everyone in that one dining room nvde. Meh, hell if I know, but I don't think we should really take the definition of such so literal.

That still doesn't prove you right.

It proves they can widely be considered chaotic, as the poll clearly shows.

This is why you should join the Legion! Look at how well we work together!

We're not so different, Colonel!

Fair enough. I'm inclined to agree with Celan regarding the merit of further debating with you on this topic though.

So does that make you right? No, it doesn't but it makes me a nit-picker.

If it was in the lore forums the polls would be different.

Ahem, er well...lets wait for the next great war before we discuss that...

Your topic went in completely wrong direction, but you're still satisfied because you were able to once again prove that you are right and everybody else is wrong.

I don't know what I was expecting.

I don't really think they proved anything, they used the D&D alignment chart which people forget was a gameplay mechanic in D&D as a source.