It went in the exactly right direction. Its on topic. And as I'm not the only one saying what I'm saying, no not really.

Cider is the one saying he's right and everyone else is wrong.

And your retort can be summarized as "I don't like it, so you can't use it" in combination with "It's okay when the literal definition isn't used in that thing, but we're debating this thing, so it matters here."

I wouldn't put a lot of faith in polls CKB.

Remember, stupid people get to vote too.

No what I was saying is that your definition of the term "being in a state of chaos" was wrong and that the D&D alignment chart does not apply to the elder scrolls since it's a D&D gameplay mechanic.


Not really no, the D&D alignment chart is a D&D mechanic and has no place in the elder scrolls or anything else unless that piece of work uses the alignment chart, which TES doesn't.

I think by his very nature of being the god of change, Dagon has to be chaotic. Without chaos there can be no revolution. At least, that's my opinion.

Chaos isn’t a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, they cling to the realm or the gods or love. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is.

Go back to your hidey hole Little Finger.

But the dremora and Mehrunes Dagon aren't "being in a state of chaos" because nothing they did confused and disorganized them unless if it was caused by them.

And your literal definition has very little basis in fictional works (in the context of this discussion), many of which employ chaotic and chaos in conjunction with characters that do not employ the literal definition.

I already said my point several times. I'm not repeating the whole thread because of your stubbornness.

Yep and he insists if you don't get it, it's your own fault and just haven't thought it through. That one.

But let me try, quixotic as it may be, to discuss my original point. I'll repeat that what I said was that daedra are agents of chaos. The discussion got sidetracked on the idea that this was supposed to mean that the daedra couldn't have some internal order that they follow. That was never my argument. The madman is very consistent in his own mind, but he has trouble relating to the world nonetheless. It might be his very consistency that makes him difficult to live with.

Chesterton:

"Such is the madman of experience; he is commonly a reasoner, frequently a successful reasoner. Doubtless he could be vanquished in mere reason, and the case against him put logically. But it can be put much more precisely in more general and even aesthetic terms. He is in the clean and well-lit prison of one idea: he is sharpened to one painful point. He is without healthy hesitation and healthy complexity... Every one who has had the misfortune to talk with people in the heart or on the edge of mental disorder, knows that their most sinister quality is a horrible clarity of detail; a connecting of one thing with another in a map more elaborate than a maze. If you argue with a madman, it is extremely probable that you will get the worst of it; for in many ways his mind moves all the quicker for not being delayed by the things that go with good judgment. He is not hampered by a sense of humour or by charity, or by the dumb certainties of experience. He is the more logical for losing certain sane affections. Indeed, the common phrase for insanity is in this respect a misleading one. The madman is not the man who has lost his reason. The madman is the man who has lost everything except his reason."

http://www.pagebypagebooks.com/Gilbert_K_Chesterton/Orthodoxy/The_Maniac_p3.html

Even when the daedra have their own internal order, it is simple in the sense of being single-minded. They're akin to humans' physical appetites, they're animal-like, pure instinct. In order to interact with Tamrielic society in any way that's not chaotic (there's that word again) and destructive, they need to have sanity and sensibility imposed on them from some other source, either the aedra in opposition to them or mortals directing their actions.

Now, I'm perfectly willing to concede my view of the daedra might be wrong. I'm open to any good argument to the contrary. So far I haven't seen one.

change=chaos, destruction=chaos, revolution=chaos...Mehrunes is master of the 3 and caused the Oblivion crisis so I would say he's chaotic

not all daedra are though

No. If an adjective is misused to describe something it is not supposed too, then it is wrong. Most people wouldn't look to deep into that though unless they are nit-pick or unless its brought up.

...Huh...

Does anyone know why my post is all grey and funky?

Beth borked their forums.

I was wondering what that was and thought it was some forum secret I don't know.

Do what I do, keep it in BBCode Mode.

THEY ARE JUST AS CHAOTIC AS ANYTHING ELSE!

As is expected of their and everything elses nature. All et'Ada are created from the mingling of Anu and Padomay and thus inherit traits from both. They fall on a spectrum between stasis and change, order and chaos, just like everything else in the universe they're a bit ordered, a bit chaotic.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Dagon approves of torture and whatnot, yeah?

If I were so inclined to offer an argument to contrary, good or otherwise, any such inclination* went out the window when you quoted Chesterton. That is 'won and done' in my books.

*I didn't have any inclination to begin with. I would be more inclined to align myself in favour of your argument than against.

Oh yes.

So doesn't this make him chaotic evil?

You didn't see Cider! go on about how you can't apply those alignments to TES did you?