ah intresting point, i had ended the game with the impression that they were his pawns not two seperate entities.

The Oblivion gates are opened in Mundus, from the Mythic Dawn agents. Dagon himself did not open them at Kvatch. The sacking of Kvatch was also orchestrated by the Mythic Dawn.

There are sources for this too numerous to count. From the Liminal Bridges book, to just about every document regarding the Mythic Dawn plans (e.g. the one you retrieve during the "Spies" quest), you even meet one of the Mythic Dawn agents in Paradise who orchestrated the sacking of Kvatch.

The question is imho not "why did Dagon attack Kvatch?", but should be "why directed Mankar Camoran Dagon's forces against Kvatch?"

Hard to answer. Considering how Mankar dealt with the other heirs I don't think he knew about Martin. Maybe he had only hints that there may be a heir, and destroyed the whole city? Doesn't seem very plausible to me, because then they could have made sure that everyone from Kvatch died (e.g. sending assassins into the Chapel - as you learn in Paradise, even though you don't see them during the battle for Kvatch, there were there), especially since then the Mythic Dawn wouldn't have closed a lot of gates before everyone was dead.

It could have been simply petty revenge. Or pleasing Dagon with a bit of good, old destruction (secret assassinations are not exactly Dagon's sphere). Or a distraction, like what also happened later in a lot of other provinces just to keep the Empire busy. Or grand opening of the war planned.

I don't think it was about Martin. Then the gates wouldn't have been closed (there were at least 4, but when the player arrives only one was still open), and the Daedra would have attacked everyone from Kvatch, including the encampment. They certainly had the resources to make sure no heir survived.

Or, well, it was about Martin and Mankar was secretly blessed by Sheogorath and totally stupid. Who knows?

I still refuse to believe that the reason why there were Oblivion portals everywhere along the country side and not just appearing to siege and destroy a city and then move on to the next was because until the barriers were completely gone, it was Dagon's intention to sow fear and chaos amongst Tamriel. Kvatch was an incarnation of that. It was a city like any other. There were no other cities that the Daedra had to take or conquer before Kvatch. No troop movements that were recognizable. Just BAM! siege, destroy, disappear. No real way to counter-attack, just to preemptively close the gate before it can cause too much trouble. I feel like one or two members of the nine managed to keep Martin occluded from the infernal powers at work here until he moved to Cloud Ruler.

Another possibility lies in the enemies ability to gather information. Perhaps they had someone on the inside of the castle and they provided the detailed plans and possible escape routes, but since Martin was only kept between Uriel and Jauffre they didn't know about Martin. Otherwise why wouldn't they have done away with him eons ago before they set the plan in motion.

In other words, as much of a coincidence is possible in the ES world, Martin and Kvatch were a coincidence.

Additionally, Assassin rarely means stealthy executioner like we see them in Fantasy settings. An Assassin usually is a group of thugs armed who beset their target when out for a walk or something, and kill them in broad daylight, chances are if the target is guarded, then they'll leave after the target is dead, but not before the guard is too. In other words, they leave witnesses.

Finally, never accuse a Daedric Prince of thinking simply. That forces you to underestimate him, to which you will then end up dead in a not-so-pleasant way.

So if Dagon, nor anyone else except Jauffre and Uriel, knew about Martin, what did Martin then mean when he said: "So you mean that Oblivion gate opened just to get at me?". He says something like that when you first talk with him in Kvatch, if I remember correctly.

Maybe he thinks it was because of him and wasn't considering any other possibility. He was confused about gods' behaviour, why would they let this happen, so once he heard schocking news that he is heir, he simply felt resposible for what has happened. After so many unexpected things happening it's no surprise that someone could not think calmly and rationaly.




Well, Mythic Dawn had spies inside and arround Bruma (I think it is fair to assume that in the rest of the Cyrodiil, too) so they might have found out about the heir and that he hides in Cloud Ruler Temple. Dagon probably wanted to kill Martin so that there wouldn't be even a slightiest chance of failure

Emperor Martin Septim is NOT all-knowing as some might think. That Kvatch was attacked because of him was a theory made by him, not a fact.
Mythic Dawn just attacled Kvatch because it was second most prestigeous city in Cyrodiil and it's destruction, along with the death of the emperor, would shatter the morale of people.

With Martins ID out of the bag so to speak and Cloud Ruler Temple not being so secretive why exactly wasnt a gate opened outside or inside there?

My friends, it's a sad fact we're all aware of that Oblivion left much to be wished for in terms of depth and sometimes even the simplest logic. Yes, Martin was the reason Kvatch was destroyed, but it wasn't Dagon's reason, nor Mankar's. It was the reasoning of a group of devs making up the most efficient way to 1) demonstrate the threat of an invasion from Oblivion, 2) demonstrate Martin's character in dramatic circumstance, and last but surely not the least, to 3) make sure the player has a bunch of endangered civilians to save by going through her first Oblivion gate. The facts we're clinging to now in search for a lore explanation - that Kvatch had a history with Dagon, that Kvatch housed the temple of Akatosh, as well as the unfortunate piece of Martin's dialog that points to the idea he was the reason for the sacking of the city - were merely convenient afterthoughts.

What I'm saying is that at the time Oblivion was made, there were no reasons for Kvatch to be the first to fall other than plotting the story; no internal reasons. I'm not saying we should stop trying to make some up, though. With that in mind, I ask you to think about the following:

If Dagon had known about who and where Martin were, Martin would have been dealt with in the same manner as the other heirs. I think there are no reasons to doubt this. The argument that Dagon did know, but was bound by honor to destroy the city instead of using assassins, is flawed because he obviously used assassins on the Emperor and the three legitimate princes. The argument that it was Mancar who deployed the assassins and not Dagon working through Mancar (in that and all other practical issues of the invasion and its preparations), is, in my opinion, entirely arbitrary. I am unaware of any hints leading to such a conclusion, so I kindly ask those who think that Mancar was independent of Dagon in any significant way to tell me what this idea is based on.

The notion that Dagon/Mancar knew the heir was in Kvatch, but didn't know who or where exactly, so they decided to level the whole city, has some merit, as well as a strong ancestry in real-life... mythology. If I had to choose among unsatisfactory explanations, I'd go for this one.

The scenario that requires the fewest assumptions and causes the fewest contradictions is indeed coincidence: if there was a specific reason Kvatch was the first to fall, this reason had nothing to do with Martin. I think that's rather boring, though.


I kind of lost you there. So - you don't believe the random gates were there to terrorize people? What is it that you do believe?

I like to think the random gates are a symptom of the barrier falling apart: the representation of the fact that Mundus is slowly turning into Oblivion, something indeed "random", even unintended - collateral damage.

Like I said earlier, I'm sure the Mythic Dawn were acting as part of Mahrunes Dagon's plan to end the line of the Septim family and acquire the Amulet of Kings to allow Dagon access to Mundus. After that part of his plan was successfull, the Mythic Dawn agents were no longer neccessary. I feel like an unlimited army of Daedra would be a far more attractive option to Mehrunes Dagon then a bunch of blacksmiths and farmers weilding conjured maces. If you were the Daedric Prince of Destruction which do you think would have a better chance of success of winning a war for you? And has been noted earlier the Daedric Princes are omniscient, and I believe he was aware of Martin's nature and his location. But, I also believe he would be at the least wary of trusting humans anymore than he had too, and is probably racist towards them. This attitude is well documented in all my dealings with any of the daedra. And this once again lends creedence to my theory that he would rather send an army of Daedra that he has control over to kill Martin and every other person in Kvatch, rather than use the Mythic Dawn, which is the entire purpose of his war anyways. Mehrunes Dagon was not attempting to preserve Kvatch or any of the other cities of the Empire. He was planning on destroying everything and everyone anyways.


I personally believe the random gates were a syptom of the weakening of the barrier between Mundus and Oblivion. As the barrier weakened, Dagon was able to open more and more gates on the plane of Mundus allowing him to wreak more destruction on the people and places of Tamriel.

Yeah, that was one heck of a tangled sentence. I started saying one thing but got side tracked and said another thing. What I meant to say was that assuming that the Imperial City invasion was the first real battle in Mehrunes Dagon's invasion of Tamriel, then the random gates and even the battle of Kvatch were instruments to sow fear and discord among Tamriel. It would also serve to keep any effective military off balance if they were serious about closing them. The only hole in this theory is that if you look at the extended lore, then the destruction of Ald-Ruhn wouldn't make sense. But I'm willing to let the theory stand even with that flaw.

And yes, you are right, I am applying interpretation where there probably was none originally intended. This argument has already been disproven in literature. See "The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn" and the scholarly interpratation attached to it. I don't see any reason why the same reason the argument is false in literature can't also be false for Video Games.

I actually assume more (many, many more) towns and cities were destroyed (or at least besieged) in the course of the invasion than we get to hear about in the game. I think I even remember a dev comment sort of confirming it.

There's another thing that bothers me about the invasion.

The veil is thinning and when it's gone, it's the end of the world as we know it. Mundus melts away into the Void and Dagon can (re)claim it (or whatever). If this is so, and if this is the inevitable result of opening the lot of the gates, why bother with a military invasion at all? Why not just sit and watch the world fall apart?

Because the game would be boring that way, I know. Or - Dagon just likes sacking things. But I'd like to come up with a better answer.

one thing
why was the great gate closed when the work wasnt all done? no one had closed the gates because they weren't brave/skilled enough so I don't see why he would just close it and place a little gate.

He invaded in order to claim the prize as his. If the Mundus was simply washed away in the tide of Oblivion, then all of the power, all of the potential bound up in the place gets washed away too. It goes back to an ongoing argument I had years back here asserting that Mehrunes Dagon fulfills his nature, but that doesn't mean he MUST turn everything he casts his gaze on to ash. After all, he is, like the other princes, a tyrant-god.

Hmmm, okay. Well, now that I've had some time I realized that there is no reason why the two can't be reconciled. Kvatch WAS the opening battle, afterwards continued hitting targets. Wild Oblivion gates were meant to keep resistance off balance. Strike at IC was first battle where they bared the full force of M/D's army. There.

Your thought that the gates were opening naturally is flawed though because they were kept open via sigil stones which were housed in artificially constructed towers and the two interplayed with each other... somehow to keep the realm connected to Nirn. This implies that the gates were first opened artificially too.

Huh. Just had a thought there, the towers in Oblivion with sigil stones are some Oblivionic version of the towers on Nirn. It makes sense with the whole Tower/Stone piece. One doesn't work without the other. The stones are just interchangeable... kind of. Unless by taking the stone, you destabilize the pocket of Oblivion you currently were in and that's the real reason why you were shunted back: because of your connection with the Aedra linking you back to the realm... well, anyways just a thought.



The great gate was closed because of two reasons, first to prevent an inevitable counter attack that might destroy the siege engine, and second possibly because it was needed in another attack elsewhere.

I don't think Dagon knew exactly who he was looking for. You can't assainate someone if you don't know who they are. I think he knew a spetim resided in Kvatch but didn't know who it was, so using a gate would guarantee almost complete destruction. But the odds were against Dagon with Martin being a priest. Daedra can't enter a chapel of the nine so Martin had more chance of surving than most.

Now, what proof where do we have that?

Also, I might cite the Chapel undercroft (still part of the chapel) at Kvatch was overrun w/Daedra.

I'm currently building an Oblivion mod that has as one of its premises an attempt to kill the Emperor's illegitimate son, that gets the wrong victim, because the identity of Martin was not known to the Mythic Dawn. So I have an interest in at least the Camorans being unaware of his identity.

That said, I don't agree with Dagon being "omnipotent and omniscient" because any pantheon of immortals have to be limited or you run into the usual problems of each of them being able to destroy the others at will, which brings you back to one very quickly. If Dagon was truly omnipotent and omniscient, there would only be Dagon. In his own plane, he may have unlimited power, but that's not quite the same as exerting it in Mundus.

My interpretation is that Dagon's ability to operate is constrained by his peers, and part of that constraint is implemented through the Amulet of Kings and the Dragonfires, whether they are a means in themselves, or merely tokens of the powers behind them. There is no reason to believe that some similar mechanism isn't concealing Martin from Dagon, although he'd be aware of the "disturbance in the force" - to borrow a metaphor. It probably also lead to the gate opening outside Kvatch instead of inside the walls where it would have made more sense - that was as close as could be achieved. Gates opened outside cities until the end, where Dagon was directly involved, and they were probably allowed as a trap by the rest of the pantheon. Akatosh operates through Martin but is obliged to withdraw and restore the balance, lest they gang up on him next.

Well from what I know, Daedra are wholly consumed by their respective planes, right? Sheogorath can't help but be a total psychopath any more than a mortal can help being flesh and blood: it's simply what he is. With this in mind, Dagon has no choice but to reflect his sphere of Destruction (or is it the other way around?), demonstrated quite nicely through his "smash everything, don't ask any questions" kind of mentality.

So, because of this fact, I don't think Dagon could have been subtle about the entire Kvatch affair, because it's so far outside his respective sphere that I would imagine he's incapable of grasping it, let alone implementing it. Notice how the Mythic Dawn is never seen operating alongside Dagon's forces, outside of Cameron's "Paradise"? Cameron seems capable of much more intricate methods, and he's the one leading the Mythic Dawn, not Dagon directly (And in typical Daedra fashion, Dagon probably let him borrow some of his lackeys for all the lovin' the Mythic Dawn gives him) This is probably why the Mythic Dawn's assassination of Uriel went off so well, and why Dagon went ahead and just bum rushed Kvatch with his big stompey...tank.

The moral of this story, children, is that mortals will always triumph over Daedra in the end, because Daedra are two-dimensional beings limited by their own spheres, and mortals are capable of dynamic evolution and can think in various fashions.

PS: I don't buy the idea that Dagon, or any of the other Daedra, are omnipotent or omniscient, because if they were I think I would have encountered a little more resistance from Dagon when I went running around his realm, busting up the place.

The only thing I'd mention is that the Aedra are supposed to be creatures of stasis. To them, action is anathema, so being forced to act is avoided at all costs and if it is necessary to act, then such action would be as swift, small, and as descisive as possible. Hopefully with the effort to restore the status quo and nothing else.

Also, I used to hold a theory that Daedric politics were a lot more intricate and cutthroat than we mortals are priviledged to see. Such that Dagon wouldn't have been able to invade unless he had at least the tacit approval of a majority of Princes. I have since strayed from that theory a lot for the simple reason that the Daedra are immortal and therefore bored. If anything new happens, whether from a Daedra Prince or a mortal, they probably wouldn't work to oppose it unless it directly threatened them because it is new and not boring.

I support the theory that Dagon is simply incapable of subtle ways of dealing with things (e.g. employ assassins). I may be wrong, but I think the only reason why he attacked Kvatch with Oblivion gates and his deadra, but subordinated assassins (maybe through Camoran or in some other way) to take care of poor old Uriel and his closest heirs is that before the the Emperror was alive and Dragonfires stayed lit, Dagon simply couldn't open Oblivion gates on Tamriel (or at least not enough to destroy IC). After the Emperror was dead, he could act the way he pleased

My rebuttal is that there was no more destructive an act than the killing of four people that night. The three legitimate princes and Uriel Septim. Even if Martin was given the latitude to rule for a long time, he would always have been dogged by questions of legitimacy. An already weak empire with its emperor having a shaky claim to its crown. A coup or secession or another person with a similar or better claim to the crown would be inevitable.

I think shaking or ending the Septim dynasty was not the goal but a means to achieve it, which, if I'm not wrong, wasn't instability of Empire, but invasion and occupation (or destruction) of Tamriel. Even though the assassinations were quite a big political destruction, I believe it was more of a side effect (not unwanted, obviously), since Dagon needed the Dragonfiries not to be lit anyway. Again, I would call assasinating a subtle move, where I always associate Dagon with more warring, armageddonish destruction

My point was to use the assasination as a way to show that very destructive, chaotic, revolutionary, and ambitious acts can and are accomplished by only destroying a small thing. Yes, big, loud invasions grab attention, and do them a couple of times and your name and nature gets attached to it. But does doing this prevent you from acting subtly if you want to? No. Dagon wanted Tamriel as his prize. The only way he was going to claim it was if he invaded it.

For example, take his shrine quest from Morrowind. He asks the Nerevarine to fetch his razor, which lies dormant and powerless in a tomb, stolen by a person who he deemed unworthy of the blessed razor. The Nerevarine goes, gets his razor, and offers it to Dagon, who gives it its power again. In thanks, the Nerevarine gets to keep the razor. For the time being. We can deduce Dagon's desires concerning the razor quite easily: his razor was not being used, he wanted it to "draw a line of blood across the land in the name of Mehrunes Dagon." Convenient power-hungry adventurer calls upon Dagon for a favor. Dagon, sensing the plot in our adventurer, promises the razor to him if he can retrieve it. He doesn't try to get revenge on the person who defiled his razor. No, he wanted his artifact, a manifestation of his power, to fulfill his sphere again. So he went about it in the most efficient way possible. He could've been flashy. He could probably have gotten a military commander to send his forces into the tomb, retrieve the razor, burn the tomb to the ground, killed all of the living family members the tomb is connected to, etc. But that wasn't efficient.

I think the reason why you and others connect him this way (and I recognize that it ultimately boils down to conflicting viewpoints) to the more warring, armageddonish destruction is because of the ambitious part of his sphere. Yes, Dagon is ambitious. He wants to control Tamriel. So naturally, the only way to do such a thing is to make an invasion.

Well, the way he dealt with Martin questions Dagon's capability of subtlety (that is if we believe that Dagon knew about Martin). Once opening gates was a possible option, Dagon immediately came with a bang. If Dagon didn't know who exactly was the heir or Kvatch and Martin was a coinsidence, then his way of working can be seen in different light. Also it would suggest that anything that can be interpreted as destruction is an OK for Dagon and that he put different strategies in front of "We'll do an Armageddon" option when neccessary

And I think we have come at last to the sticking point that neither of us can reconcile on.

I am, obviously, attached to this figure and I will vehemently defend anything that I percieve to be throwing our conception of him through the mud. So, naturally I will gravitate to whatever argument makes him look nobler. But I know when convincing becomes swapping back and forth and reiterating arguments again and again without much budging.

After four or five days of this, I'm ready to agree to disagree and let it rest.