If I have understood this correctly, Dagon had an Oblivion gate open in Kvatch to kill Martin (and to take revenge of Kvatch). But there were a few survivors, and Martin was one of them. Having an Oblivion gate open is not a guarantee that the one person you want to kill actually gets killed. In addition, this has drawn a lot of attention towards the gate, and made guards willing to fight the Daedra and protect the survivors, making it even more difficult to finish off those who are left. What I don't understand, is why Dagon didn't tell his Mythic Dawn agents to quietly assassin Martin before opening any Oblivion gate. Thus no one would be alarmed and on guard, no one woul suspect that anyone was after Maritn as no one yet knew who he really was. Only then, after Martin was killed, could Dagon have opened gates and be sure that there were no way to stop him.

It just seem like poor planning from the Daedric Prince.

Wasn't it the whole point that Martin's true lineage was a secret? Jauffre comments that Dagon may be aware of his existence, but I doubt he knows exactly who he is. Perhaps Dagon had some information where to look first (Kvatch having been attacked before by him), but I find it unlikely that he knew that Martin was the Priest of Akatosh there. That would imho make an(other) assault the better option than sending in assassins with an unknown target.

Ah, ok. I assumed that Dagon knew that Martin was a Septim, since Martin in Kvatch says something to the lines of: "So you mean that Oblivion gate was opened just to get at me?"

I don't think Dagon would have changed his plans, if he would know where Martin is. He is a Daedra-Lord, they think in other spheres as mortals like us. He assumed, that the heir is in Kvatch. So... the first target will be Kvatch. What will the citizen and soldiers of Kvatch will do against an daedric invasion?

Poor Dagon :rolleyes:

So what you are saying is that Daedric Princes act first and think later?

What I want to say: Dagon takes his title - Prince of Destruction to literal. Look... he destroyed Mournhold, the Battlespire and now Kvatch - just to make his name honor. Sometimes it is better to slow down a bit.

I agree. He could still honor his title by destroying Kvatch - after he had made sure Martin was assassined.

Muthsera,

Although I am loathe to disagree with one of such esteem as Nalion, I would humbly proffer that Mehrunes The Mighty did, in fact, known of Martin's existence and relationship to Uriel Septim. I say this for the following reasons:

First, and although it seems to contradict the ability of heroes (such as the hero of Battlespire) to thwart his plans, Mehrunes Dagon, like the other Daedric Princes, is both omnipotent and omniscient. I come to this point due to http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/marobar.shtml#11. Irregardless of the Tale's factual basis, it is the commentary of Ted Peterson, a major offical lore contributor (praise be to Tedders-Who-Is-Sheogorath!). Herein lies the quote from http://www.imperial-library.info/book_daedra/index.shtml#azura:



This, I believe, answers our question. Yes, Dagon knew of Martin and his Septim lineage, but just like Azura, he had doubts, which could lead him to be wrong.

I hope that this helps, for I remain...


Yours in the Scrolls,


___The Word Merchant of Julianos

But Dagon wouldn't really care if he killed Martin, and he turned out to be innocent? Why not assassin him first anyway, just to be sure?

Mehrunes Dagon, while although apparently demonstrated to be "omnipotent and omniscient" in the extrapolated words of Tedders, is also shown as follows in the Dissident Priest, Aranea Drethan's "http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/varieties_daedra.shtml":

"Mehrunes Dagon, on the other hand, out of pride, fixity of purpose, and a predictable lack of subtlety in thought, knew nothing and understood nothing, and was inclined to speak freely and without falsehood." and that his Dremora "were like him in pride, fixed purpose, and lack of subtlety, with the addition of the peculiar traits of honor and loyalty, both within their class and within their relationship to Lord Dagon."

Perhaps the traits of honor would prohibit the Dremora from utilizing the less-than-chivalric actions of skulking in the shadows and assassinating?

Notice that this only applies to the Dremora because the traits of honor and loyalty are said to be "additional", which seems to imply that they do not apply to Dagon himself. We know this for another reason: the Mythic Dawn was more than capable of assassination, but those weren't Dremora, were they?

However, we have yet to answer the question as to why Dagon did not have Martin assassinated. We have only established (hypothetically) why the Dremora did not undertake that task. Why not use the Mythic Dawn to kill Martin? Surely it would have been easier to get to Martin than it would have been to get close enough to Uriel to kill him.

My only explanation to this connundrum is that the Mythic Dawn seemed to be under the command of Mankar Camoran, which does not necessarily mean that Dagon dealt in micro-managing them. This would give rise to Dagon being, even to Camoran, a more godlike and distant figure, not an entity that Camoran had on "speed dial", so to speak.



Yours in the Scrolls,


___The Word Merchant of Julianos

I guess it was just a first attack, I mean he has to attack somewhere didn't he...
He might have been crying aferwards when he found out the secret heir was there too....

Assassination is not Dagon's style, it's not a part of his sphere - that's more Boethiah or Mephala's shtick. I'm not sure it would even occur to him, or if it did, he would even choose it. He can't act contrary to his nature. That's why I think he went with the big, showy, destructive gates rather than the subtle but possibly more effective assassination. Dagon is not subtle.

Muthsera MoonstalkerZ,

I agree with your assessment; Dagon is not subtle, and his tactics during the Oblivion Crisis merely reflected his state of existence, that of pure (and showy) destruction at its finest.


___TWM

I think that Mankar is the commander-in-the-field of Dagon's forces, anyway. As Jearl's orders suggest, Dagon seems only to allocate resources and perhaps have the final say.

Although I agree with the above poster when he said that Dagon and Mankar aren't that close as far as associates go. Mankar may well have his own motives. Dagon's motives of 'reclaiming' Nirn may be Dagon's motives, as described by Mankar, but if Mankar is the man who ordered the attack at Kvatch then it is less likely that he knew of Martin's existence and was just sacking the city as his father had done.

Remember the political and strategic advantages of sacking the second-largest city and one of best fortresses in Cyrodiil, complete with a Chapel of Akatosh.

According to the lore, there were Mythic Dawn soldiers at Kvatch, as well, possibly making up most of the forces as they needed their own commander who may well have had authority over the Daedra as well. We can only assume that these soldiers fled the field, whereas if they were under the command of Dagon they would have stayed to thoroughly destroy everything, especially as they, unlike the Daedra, could probably go on holy ground and overrun the chapel.

Mankar wants the return of the Mythic Era, or perhaps the First Era, and Dagon wants to reclaim Nirn for whatever reason. Both of them need each other, but it doesn't mean they trust or are close associates of each other. Who are the Mythic Dawn to Dagon? Are they more than the Morag Tong are to Mephala, or the Urshilaku to Nerevar? It doesn't seem likely.

They're more like arrows for the bow of his infernal wrath - cheap, plentiful, utterly disposable tools.

Which is why I thought not even a subtle assassin would be necessary. He could have ordered Mythic Dawn-agents to just attack and kill Martin whereever they found him, and be sure they succeeded - whatever their fate was afterwards, wasn't Dagon's concern. And the agens would probably be glad to die in such a service, as they would go straight to Paradise.

Sometimes you have to say: it is how it is. TES has many possibilities to interprate some decisions which were made, but if Dagon and Camoran would be as subtle as you suggest, then all people of Tamriel were dead yet. The PC has to safe Martin from Kvatch, it was part of the game(!). It's like... remember in Metal Gear Solid 1, when you go with Meryl to this tower and Sniper Wolf shot her in the legs? You could ask: why didn't she shoot Snake in the head? It would be a good question, but the answer would always be: it's how it is.

I hate to destroy perfectly good reasoning, but keep in mind that Oblivion completely destroyed and butchered all forms of lore that dealt with divinity, reality, geography, culture, religion, ethnicity, and history.

Who's to say that, really, when it just comes down to it, that it was actually just poor thinking on part of a plot writer? That's my guess anyway. :/

I would imagine that Talos or Akatosh would've moved to have kept Martin secret. Either Talos in order to ensure that the Empire dies but Mundus does not or Akatosh in just a 'keeping all of my direct followers protected somewhat from the nefarious Daedra'.

In this way, my namesake would've probably known he existed and been working to ascertain where he was, but didn't and so until he could find and kill him, he would move to spread fear and discontent among the general populace to try to shatter as much support as Martin's allies could get. Never discount the resistance the Daedra have to come up against with the Aedra whenever they're dealing with the Mundus. Normally I can cite the barriers between Mundus and Oblivion but in this case I can't.

But then again, speculating like this is like asking, why didn't Mehrunes Dagon just create a Volcano or Earthquake and level Cloud Ruler Temple or the IC in order to stop Martin when he was at said location? It's within his ken. In the end it comes down to the ineffable reason of 'he just didn't, okay?'

Also, that would've been unfair to the game's plot which always favors victory for its hero.

Thats what I'm saying... if Dagon would be as subtle as some guys would like to, the 4. TES game wouldn't be a game, but a movie with a very bad ending.

That would explain it, if you don't actually know who your target is but know where to find him, a full assault might be more effective than a lone assassin. Also, I don't think Meruhns Dagon is really the subtle type, to us, assassinating Martin might seem like the best idea, but we have to consider Dagon's personality here, I'm sure that to the Prince of Destruction, destroying the city must have seemed like a very good idea, just as Sheogorath takes great pleasure in messing with people's heads and so on.

And yes, if Dagon were so subtle as to use such methods, there would be no main quest for Oblivion, Martin would be killed, there would be no Septim's left to stop the Daedric invasion, the Daedra would come and destroy all the cities, and everyone dies, happy end. So it was sort of required by the plot that a method that leaves Martin a chance to escape be used.

From what I have read about Mehrunes Dagon, I don't think he would be able to do anything but what he did in Kvatch. Namely complete and utter destruction. I don't think the Daedric Prince of Destruction would be capable of even trying to use an assassin. The very nature of the realm he has been given control of would force Mehrunes to do what he did. He probably knew who Martin was and where he was at, but he took the only action that would make sense to him. He saw a target, and sent an army to destroy it.

The thing I don't understand is why he attacked Bruma as heavily as he did. To me, Anvil makes far more sense as a strategic target than Bruma.

Its the perfect battleplan for the sistuation: assassins may have bungled it and there was the off chance he could have been wrong so you need to think outside the box and a bit more physco- smash the place up and kill everyone in sight will ensure you have got the guy your after



His Mythic Dawn agents managed to take out the rest of the Royal Family however...

They weren't his Mythic Dawn agents, they were Mankar Camoran's. And it seems like the assassination of Uriel Septim was more an act controlled by Camoran. As long as Uriel Septim was alive and in possession of the Amulet, Mehrunes Dagon was incapabale of acting on Nirn. After the assassination, there was no longer a barrier between the two planes and Mehrunes Dagon was free to do as he saw fit.

the mythic dawn were not specifically his though. they were the pawns of Mankar, who worshiped Dagon for his own purpose. Dagon never gave the order to kill of the emperor, afair (tbh i never finished oblivion)

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