Is it just me, or do the spheres of Mephala and Boethiah seem VERY similar? Just hear me out for a minute.

From what I've read, I know that Boethiah is the Prince of Plots, Deception, and Assassination. "Boethiah's Pillow Book" seems to suggest that six fits in there somewhere, too. Mephala's sphere is less clear, but seems to involve...plots, deception, murder, and six. The fact that he/she/it serves as the patron deity of a society of assassins muddles things even further. The fact that it's not the official Prince of Secret Murder just makes me scratch my head a little. I suppose it could be justified in that the best assassin is one you don't know is an assassin until it's too late. Still, color me puzzled.

It's enough to make me wonder if the two of them aren't in fact one and the same. I wouldn't put it past Mephala (or even Boethiah) to disguise himself/herself/itself as another Daedric Prince, with Boethiah being the more "public" face of the two-sided coin. There might even be precedent for that sort of thing (i.e. the Night Mother).

Still, rather than openly state such a thing as fact, I'd like to appeal to our friendly loremasters for help. Am I missing something here? Some important distinction between Mephala and Boethiah? Or am I onto something?

Boethiah isn't the prince of murder and six. Unless a dev spoke about the Pillow book, we have no idea what it actually contains. Boethiah is the prince of plotting and treachery.

Also: the unlawful overthrow of authority. Can't forget about that.

I know that. But assassination is still part of his sphere, isn't it? It certainly fits in well with treachery.

Not really. You could say that ssassination borders to treachery, but it is definitly not the same thing.
Compare to "unlawful overthrow of authority" contra "revolution", which is in Dagon's sphere.

Did you really just say that?

I think something that has helped me differentiate Boethiah's spheres with others is perceiving it as "conspiracy" rather than trying to look at it as "plots," even though they're the same thing. As we can see, it can cause a small amount of confusion sometimes.

And yeah...that was kinda a silly thing to say Paladin... heh.

Well, since nothing has been said on it, and lore regarding it is nonexistent there isn't much to go on either way.

I can see where you're coming from, and these spheres, although totally separate, do go together quite well and complinent one another. That being said, look at traditional Velothi beliefs. Why do you think that the dunmer picked the daedra that they did for their religion? They go well together. If you look at the spheres of the three good daedra, it speaks volumes about what qualities dunmeri society values.

In other words, don't piss off a dark elf.

Actually, you're talking post-Tribunal. Original Velothian beliefs are, in fact, to worship ALL Daedra. The Tribunal came and poked its head in then declared the three 'good' Anticipations, then the four 'bad' Corners of the House of Troubles. Which is obnoxious to say the least, becuase in reality it was indeed Boethiah who led the Chimer to Morrowind, anon Velothi, anon Resdayn in the first place, no?

They worshipped 7 daedra, but the tribunal organized it into 4 bad and 3 good. That's why the only daedra represented with ruined (pre-tribunal) shrines on vvardenfell are these 7. And, for the record, yes it is obnoxious, but Boethiah is considered a good daedra by the tribunal, so it's of no offense to his/her impact on the dunmeri culture.

Can I ask exactly WHY you just restated what I said? :wacko:

And also, just remember exactly what Boethiah did to Trinimac and how fitting it should be that Almalexia (still Chimer) took on his/her role.

From TIL:
As for Mephala: but from Varieties of Faith in the Empire:

They're getting Mephala and Sanguine mixed up.


Sanguine, whose sphere is hedonistic revelry and debauchery, and passionate indulgences of darker natures.

six, secrets, and assassination.


Uh.....

Well I'll be damned.

That's NOT what you said, dude. I was correcting you on the numbers involved.

Yes, yes I'm quite aware that the post above yours is mine, which is why I was ever-so inclined to ask why you just repeated what I said, albeit adding in the fact that Boethia was still a 'good Daedra'.

So it was a moot point to have even said anything at all. In fact, I was only speculating on the fact that I thought you were saying the three 'good Daedra' were worshiped becuase they had...'good qualities'...? I mean that makes no sense any way. If they're looking for good qualities, they can go worship the damn Mountain Farts of the North. They can go learn to start licking Hist Sap. They can go have Giant White Tower (and dominant slave owner) fetishes. The three 'good Daedra' are actually anything but holders of 'qualities'. They're ideas, traits, natural rivets. They can't go against what they are extensions of. So you're saying all Dunmer are horny, PMSing, blood-hungry, killing, maniacal, even more horny, secretive, bored ass people.

Which, the horny part may be true, but I chalk that down to too much MUATRA mantra.

You simply DO NOT get it do you? The important part of what I said was the numbers, not what I added. I corrected you, I did not restate what you said. Velothian teachings zero in on 7 of the 16 daedra. The division by the tribunal into good daedra and the four corners is a moot point considering Veloth, himself, taught the Chimer the difference between good and bad daedra. The designation of "Four Corners of the House of Troubles" and the abandoning the worship of these four did not come about until the tribunal, that much is true. But as far as "good" qualities go, ask someone to define what they deem "good". Good is a subjective term. To the dunmer/chimer these qualities were "good". Seriously, man. Listen to yourself. Either your not reading or your not thinking, because you're obviously not doing both.

He said all, all would be 7.

Which is why I called it obnoxious. Because worship to them should not have been divided to begin with. Calm down, Betsy, it's ok. I'm just saying that you REALLY didn't add anything to anything. Really. Ok, so they worshiped 7, not 16. Good, now go stroke your ego off into your toilet, becuase I can really, honestly tell you that it makes no difference.

It always was, even when Veloth came up with the idea, man.



You said, "Actually, you're talking post-Tribunal. Original Velothian beliefs are, in fact, to worship ALL Daedra." In response to my post about how the 7 daedra worshipped by the Chimer all have slightly similar spheres, painting a wonderful portrait about what it meant to be Chimer at the time. I corrected you, saying that they did, in fact, worship 7 above the rest, and that was the main idea behind my post, so it DOES make a difference. This is a thread about how Boethiah and Mephala have overlapping spheres, is it not? They were among this 7. Don't you hate it when someone realizes they can't win an argument because they're wrong, so they call the argument that THEY started "beside the point"?

Your pretentious response to being corrected is what is obnoxious, my friend. Before we take this any further senseless fighting ensues, let's shake on it and walk away. Okay?

No, not really, becuase I still think it's [censored] stupid that you're trying to say that I have no clue what I'm going on about and I'm only saying your correcting the number of Daedra they worshiped besides the point becuase I'm trying to not loose a battle or something. But whatever. :shrug:

Yes, Mephala and Boethia have overlapping spheres. Joy to the [censored] Nirn, right?

OK, since it's obvious that you still have an issue here, let me clarify. We agree on the fact that this is a stupid argument, right? Read my first post, and your response, ok? You corrected me, originally, when I said "that's why they chose those particular daedra to worship." I meant the 7. I'm assuming you thought I was only referring to the three. Then, I corrected you saying that Veloth did have good daedra and bad daedra but it wasn't until the tribunal that they stopped worshipping the bad daedra. A total of 7, in all, not 16. I guess I misunderstood what you meant by "all". When I said you didn't know what you were talking about, I wasn't meaning you don't know your lore. I was meaning you have no clue that you're the one who started debating the numbers in the first place, man. And if it truly makes no difference, then why did you post a correction in your reply, saying the idea of good and bad daedra is an Almsivi concept rather than Velothian? It makes no sense to argue with someone over something that doesn't matter. That's why I think we should just let this go and chalk it up to a miscommunication. OK? Now, I'm willing to play nice and move on, pretending we never got into it over something so freaking dumb, but only if you're also willing to let it go.

In other words... I apologize.

Anyway, back to the thread topic. I agree that the spheres of certain daedra are so adjacent as to be ambiguous from time to time. I believe, personally, that the differences are subtle. Kind of like how Peryite and Jyg seem to have similar spheres, but when you break them down and look at the specifics involved, it becomes apparant that these two are WAAAAAY different. As I said, I believe that's why the Chimer picked daedra with redundant spheres. There are subtle differences, and when you take all of them together, it covers all forms of the idea/word/sphere itself.

In other words, I'm sure there's a difference between Mephala's assasination sphere and Boethiah's. Mephala is the force behind the Morag Tong, correct? Morag Tong assassinations are to preserve the Chimer culture. This is meant to create stasis (I know, it's not a daedric concept, but hear me out). Boethiah's assassination sphere is geared more toward the overthrow of authority. This is meant to cleanse. They are the same act, but with different intentions. Both of these, however, were necessary for the Velothian exodus and subsequent establishment of the Chimeri society. Another case of the whole being greater than the sum of its parts, I suppose.