-mer suffix : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:29 pm

Now that I see M'aiq considers Dwemer to be dwarves, even though a liar, I wonder if -mer just
means people and not elves. Why would the devs make Dwemer ruins and robots right up the alley
of typical fantasy dwarves with their technology and have them actually be a disappeared type of
elf? Would they lead us down the wrong road using M'aiq or is he the one to disabuse us of the idea
ingame that Dwemer=dwarf simply because he is a liar?
Seems unlikely to me. Where does the lore show that Dwemer are a type of disappeared elf definitively and not dwarves?
I can't remember if some weapons are actually called Dwarven but if so, where are the little
buggers?

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:06 pm

This is a question of lore and should be discussed on the Lore forum.

There is lots of evidence that the Dwemer are what they are generally claimed to be: a distinctive race of elves, not a cliche cribbed from The Hobbit.

I cannot point you to all of it, but you could start with http://www.imperial-library.info/dwemer/guide.shtml.

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:00 pm

Dwemer means deep thinking elf, deep thinking as in they delve into science.
They are called dwarves because of an old Imperial story, I believe, where they received the name dwarf from giants who resided in Resdayn.

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:12 pm

So they're called dwarves meaning "short" but they are not a non-elf race of the usual variety
we know as dwarves in fantasy?
Did the original fantasy concept of RPG dwarves as we usually conceive of them start entirely with
Tolkien?

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 5:01 pm

mer stands for elfs not men. just like my name here is redmer the wise because It was one of my characters who I roleplay as a cross between a high elf and a nord. I love irony.

Well anyways there's plenty of lore that the dweamer where elfs. I don't have the time to go through lore documents but I'm sure the other lore people will.

» Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:04 am

read Nigedo's lore faq, and go to the Imperial Library and UESP. The latter I would recomend for gameplay info.

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:41 pm

The Dwemer were not short, they were probably Chimer/Dunmer sized.

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:30 pm

Not probably, WERE. Those Dwemer ghosts you run into in Morrowind are life-size, you know.

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:31 pm

Not probably, WERE. Those Dwemer ghosts you run into in Morrowind are life-size, you know.

Life-size ghosts? More like death sized.

A painful joke, but unavoidable.

You're right though. Dead dwemer size is at a 1:1 ratio with live ones.

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:01 pm

Now that I see M'aiq considers Dwemer to be dwarves, even though a liar, I wonder if -mer just
means people and not elves. Why would the devs make Dwemer ruins and robots right up the alley
of typical fantasy dwarves with their technology and have them actually be a disappeared type of
elf? Would they lead us down the wrong road using M'aiq or is he the one to disabuse us of the idea
ingame that Dwemer=dwarf simply because he is a liar?
Seems unlikely to me. Where does the lore show that Dwemer are a type of disappeared elf definitively and not dwarves?
I can't remember if some weapons are actually called Dwarven but if so, where are the little
buggers?

Dwemer = Dwarf as in small beardy men/women is painfully mistaken.
Dwemer are elves, who have devoted their lives to science.
I dont remember Dwarwen weapons in-game but Dwemer. But that could be because I use way to many mods, so Dwarwen if existing in-game could have been changed.

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:41 pm

Now that I see M'aiq considers Dwemer to be dwarves, even though a liar, I wonder if -mer just
means people and not elves. Why would the devs make Dwemer ruins and robots right up the alley
of typical fantasy dwarves with their technology and have them actually be a disappeared type of
elf? Would they lead us down the wrong road using M'aiq or is he the one to disabuse us of the idea
ingame that Dwemer=dwarf simply because he is a liar?
Seems unlikely to me. Where does the lore show that Dwemer are a type of disappeared elf definitively and not dwarves?
I can't remember if some weapons are actually called Dwarven but if so, where are the little
buggers?

I would suggest that Maiq's discussion on this subject is a way for the devs to gently poke fun at themselves, and the generic fantasy cornerstones they made use of in Arena. I don't think the word "Dwemer" even appeared before Morrowind. Although they didn't include proper short beardy dwarves in the first two games, I don't expect they would actually have cemented them as elves until the development for Morrowind was starting. I assumed they realised something more original was needed, and since they hadn't actually shown dwarves in Arena and Daggerfall, they were free to think up a storyline more in-keeping with the world they were developing.

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:27 pm

Did the original fantasy concept of RPG dwarves as we usually conceive of them start entirely with
Tolkien?

Yes, and he took his inspiration from Norse and Celtic mythology, primarily the former. The Dwemer are nothing like those dwarves, though, so they are something else entirely.

» Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:20 am

Seems unlikely to me. Where does the lore show that Dwemer are a type of disappeared elf definitively and not dwarves?

Dwemer are Elves, but -mer does indeed mean "people." It refers specifically to Elven people, not Men.

Yagrum Bagarn (sp) is the last remaining Dwemer. Though his body is distorted by Corprus, his mind is (mostly) intact and his size is readily apparent to any visitor to the Corprusarium.

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:38 pm

Life-size ghosts? More like death sized.

A painful joke, but unavoidable.

You're right though. Dead dwemer size is at a 1:1 ratio with live ones.

But that doesn't take ectoplasmic distortion and spectral influence on light patterns into account!

oo:

Dwemer = Dwarf as in small beardy men/women is painfully mistaken.
Dwemer are elves, who have devoted their lives to science.
I dont remember Dwarwen weapons in-game but Dwemer. But that could be because I use way to many mods, so Dwarwen if existing in-game could have been changed.

Not all dwemer were devoted to science, although it seems to have been popular. They were just more advanced than other races.

I would suggest that Maiq's discussion on this subject is a way for the devs to gently poke fun at themselves, and the generic fantasy cornerstones they made use of in Arena. I don't think the word "Dwemer" even appeared before Morrowind.

Come to think of it, I don't think any of the elves were called mer before Morrowind.

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:59 am

Come to think of it, I don't think any of the elves were called mer before Morrowind.

That may be; Morrowind filled in a lot of lore that was previously undefined.

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:23 am

They're probably just elves... or some kind of mer...

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:28 pm

The name means Deep Elf. As for height, they're called dwarves because the giants that previously resided in Vvardenfell referred to them as such. The size of the armor is a bit unimportant because that is just the stripped shell of their centurion creations and not actual armor they made for themselves, people have robots a foot tall and ones several meters tall used in construction and assembly. Plus the fact that the armor changes to fit the size of the wearer :frog:

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:52 pm

They're probably just elves... or some kind of mer...

1) elves = mer
2) stop repeating the obvious
3) stop repeating what has already been answered 10 times in this thread.

just stop. its annoying and adds nothing to the discussion.

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 7:16 pm

1) elves = mer
2) stop repeating the obvious
3) stop repeating what has already been answered 10 times in this thread.

just stop. its annoying and adds nothing to the discussion.

Calm down, it's not like he's derailing the topic or giving it cause for lock.

But anyway, yes, as said before:

Dwemer = Deep Elf

Dwemer were devoted to science (for the most part)

They were called Dwarfs by the Giants of Red Mountain.

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:37 pm

what happend to the giants of red mountain? did the cliff racers drive them off just like the dragons?

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:54 pm

1) elves = mer
2) stop repeating the obvious
3) stop repeating what has already been answered 10 times in this thread.

just stop. its annoying and adds nothing to the discussion.

I've already got him on my ignore list.

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:06 pm

Am I missing something? Why do people not like that guy?

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:52 pm

pretty much for the reasons i listed. he comes into every thread and says something that is either painfully obvious, a restatement of the title, or that has already been said in the thread at least 10 times. adds nothing to the conversation and +1 to his post count.

if you do one of these things in one thread i'm fine. if you do all of these things in all threads it gets on my squirrely nerves.

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:50 pm

Oh ok, I was thinking if this is just one time of few than it seemed harsh, but if he does it a lot it sounds like spam.

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 7:19 pm

Dwemer are Elves, but -mer does indeed mean "people." It refers specifically to Elven people, not Men.

Commonly, but not always. "Betmer", for example, referring to beast races. And I don't remember source, but I think I've seen word "Mer" referring to intelligent races in general.

The name means Deep Elf. As for height, they're called dwarves because the giants that previously resided in Vvardenfell referred to them as such.

Not gaints of Hammerfell?
Also there is theory that imperials mistranslated "Dwe" as "short" instead of "short"...