Huh - well I've been using the one off of Tarants mod page for months but mostly because I try and be thorough (even ported it for use with Oblivion - not that it would matter as much I imagine).

I didn't realize it was a vital difference.

This is un-necessary Psymon, I didn't go around "huffing and puffing", or bringing attitude and argument to the thread. You mis-represented the situation and I corrected you. I don't think you liked that very much, and I apologize if I offended you personally. I'm sorry you feel that this was some kind of snub, but it simply wasn't. No one suggested or implied that you had issues, I think you are taking this way, way too far.

Miax

You have not offended me personally (whatever that means as you don't even know me personally) what you have done is in the same fell swoop that you attempted to 'correct me' (with information that only a few were privy to) you also clumsily behave in the manner in which you accused me of by stating misinformation (and condescending attitude) about Wrye Bash - all of which is a very public record and very actively supported. So you didn't even get it right. It is not my foot you are tasting.

You also openly state that you don't use Bash and demonstrate that you don't keep up with it but are quick to describe it as outdated and unnecessary. I have not done any of these things regarding FO3edit.

Maybe instead of coming along to correct someone another approach would be to inform them. That way remarks are viewed as being less confrontational and more open to dialogue. to come along and correct someone then snub them when they respond to this and further that by taking the conversation out of discussion of the facts and the topic and instead make several attempts to derail with comments about the emotional state of the responder - what is that if not rude?

How do you take it if I say to you that the only reason you responded was because you just could not stand my position that Wrye Bash is a superior program at making merged patches and that it mad you mad? Would it seem I'm respecting you? I would think not.

You and I are both advocates for tools for this game engine - I'm certain that we have more in common than not - including a tendency to stick up for them. There are so many things that edit can do and I advocate people use it probably more than bash, just for different things like cleaning, editing individual records, looking for conflcits, etc.

Anyway with more mention of moods and emotions than actual topics and details - I'm done with this topic and I'm certain many others are too.

You know what would be really helpful that both of you can take part in? How about each of you list what the programs can do (non paragraph form and easy to read)? We know that we can use both of them, but maybe a list can help us decide which program is best for us and more importantly, why we need them. Sure some of us know already, but what about any of the other people that don't want to take the time to ready a multi-page manual on a program they aren't even sure is right for them. Heck, it is hard enough to get people to read a single "how to install" paragraph lol.

Well, FO3Edit really only does mod editing, and does it well. Gary Bash is a whole game management tool, you can install mods, order mods, create save gameprofiles, launch GECK and other additional programs with it and what not. The point of this argument is it's Bashed Patch functionality.

It's Oblivion versions bashed patch is the community standard. No one creates merged patches with TES4Edit, WB is the tool used by everyone. With Fallout 3 Gary Bash came a bit late, and as such it isn't widely supported. The Bashed Patch funtionality is just as functional as in WB, but due to incomplete and improper tagging of mods it requires more attention by the user to get the best results. That is, check the bashed patch with FO3edit and see that all the records are merged properly.

Anyway, whether you use merged or bashed patch, there is no reason to not use both programs

I don't want to be seen as baiting others with arguments, but I'm all for actually discussing what each program does and, if possible, clearing the air about what I see as misconceptions regarding Wrye/Gary Bash.

ToJKa hit the nail on the head with several points. WB is the standard with Oblivion and people there use edit for other reasons which include:
Editing plugin entries.
Seeking out conflicting records in plugins.
Cleaning plugins.
But I've known Oblivion users to make unique merged patches to resolve things that a bashed patch cannot or normally would not with WB. Often this is in the realm of just being that picky.

With Fallout3 a major tool of FO3edit that many rely on is masterupdate and masterrestore - both of which have been purported help resolve crash issues and other oddities introduced by the 5th official patch. I've never really needed it myself. I find mod cleaning and testing more valuable with Fallout 3 and currently keep a game with over 200 mods and rarely does it crash (it of course has - just more due to the user forgetting something or not following directions). The times I tested it to resolve crashes it stil crashed and it seemed more placebo to me).

When Fallout 3 was released Wrye announced he would not port WB but he did eventually make the program open source and passed the baton on to others who continue to develop it (I've seen up to 4-6 people working on it). There was no way to make leveled list merges for a while after F3 came out and Elminster then created the merged list function which I recall him saying was rudimentary compared to bash. Almost a year later and Lord Of Doom started the transfer of Bash and Valda then picked it up and has been refining and improving it ever since by removing the Oblivion only legacy and implementing Fallout 3 tweaks. It is by far an outdated relic of the past. Valda even updated as of yesterday.

The argument that a program needs to be finished and that a finished program is better is not something I agree with. I'd rather see an ongoing program that is actively supported than a dead end. Especially with regard to modding tools. Every day there is new modding methods and workarounds that occur with modders tweaking their favorite game. A tool that is not under development has a set number of features and one that is not is what we make do with. In oblivion we make do with Oblivion Mod Manager for what it can do that Bash cannot.

Discussing all that Bash can do would take a readme to do and I've exhausted myself with writing http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1084204-bain-mod-installation-projects/ - and even it is unfinished. I still find new features with Wrye Bash, but I agree that really the comparison is about the function of the bashed patch and not save game file management, ini tweaking, installer, and the many other things that bash can do.

http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1079607-relz-garybash/page__view__findpost__p__15784598 I detail to the best of my limited ability things that Wrye/Gary Bash can do in addition to just merging leveled lists. I quote:
I'd add to that even with all these settings bash will remember your last settings on each new bashed patch so that you don't start from scratch each time.

So with these extra abilities then merging mods like Project Beauty in with the overhauls gets much easier. Of course a person can record by record, edit by edit create a merged patch with whatever of whichever mod winning at each occurance of conflict. It can get that detailed and you fan go there with edit, but most people do not want to go there and so when it comes to doing basic merges bash provides more that can be merged, greater ability to adjust now things are merged, the ability to save mod slots and so on.

I get that overhaul makers had to make due with no bashed patch and I think that has created a kind of fear or desire to not even pick it up and this late stage in the game development which is unfortunate. Perhaps with New Vegas that will not be the case (or even better that NV does not need an overhaul). Still what fuels Wrye bash development is mod makers embracing it and making feature requests. They know their mods best.

I agree that more care is needed when using a bashed patch and that is true with Oblivion as well. Just last week I discovered a BOSS recommended tag was wrong in Oblivion and this week that one was needed on FWE/WMK. So it is still a growing dynamic thing.

I agree that if a person is only looking for a quick merged patch with little hassles for their 30 installed mods that edit is probably better. I wouldn't call it optimal and would maintain that bash does more and does it better. There are still some people who cannot stand bash in Oblivion but that is not an issue with Fallout 3 because here we have choice. It is a free world - you can choose and that is a good thing. The same thing is true with regard to installers - FOMM is a damn good program and as good as BAIN. If using FWE/MMM/WMK then I'd recommend a merged patch and do the tutorial start of the game and then as time goes on and more mods get added to try out a bashed patch for more functionality.

Really for me it is not about which it is about both. So again - those who know get the benefit.

This discussion has made me curious to see whether I could spot any differences in my game when I use either a merged patch or a bashed patch without changing my load order.

I spotted two graphical ones immediately:

• When I switched to a merged patch, I could see the "glass"-effect while wearing Chinese stealth armor regardless whether I was crouching or not. With a bashed patch, it was enabled only while crouching (hidding).
  
• I also realized that not all of the faces of Project Beauty had changed the default ones while playing with a merged patch; Cherry, e.g., was still showing her default face. When I switched back to the bashed patch, she showed her Project Beauty face again.

Now, at least point 2 has quite likely more to do with my load order, something must be not quite right to lead to the described result (which, of course, means that I should take a closer look at my list). But it shows that the tagging in a bashed patch made sure that the faces were changed reliably.

Of course, bad tagging will likely result in worse results than a merged patch will ever show. And I have no idea yet whether a bashed or a merged patch does a better job in preserving the characteristics of mods without manually adding patches that correct issues afterwards.

But the differences seem to be greater than I expected.

One addendum:

At first, I had some trouble with sluggishness in a MMM-heavy area with the bashed patch that I didn't observe with the merged patch. After another restart, the bashed patch behaved exactly like the merged one, so I am very reluctant to address any problems with performance to either patch.

Yeah the above information would mean more with a list mods being used.

Think of it this way - a bashed patch is going to merge more records than just leveled lists.

So with the instance that I tackled in the FWE and Gary Bash threads with the name of a scoped .44 - the name of the gun was merged from the Fallout.esm itself. Since the Merged patch mainly handled leveled list changes and such the last loaded mod won with regard to the name which was either FWE or WMK.

The work around for juggling instances where mods need to have winning records but would normally lose is the bash tagging process. Apparently Valda set Bash up to add the Names tag to the Fallout 3 esm, but simply adding the names tag to the FWE and WMK resolved this.

With Oblivion this is all worked out by mod makers who support and use bash themselves and why it seems more a chore with Fallout.

Sigh, you're right, of course. Forgot to add my load order and now it's too late because I ran into serious stability problems after adding an intriguing but fickle mod that caused so many problems that I decided to deactivate it. So I used the opportunity to change my load order too and now I don't see any graphical differences at all between a merged and a bashed game.


I know, "old" Oblivion player.



Ah, I had added a "Names" tag to FWE and WMK and a couple other weapon and armour mods some time ago, following my Oblivion experience, so I didn't even realize there was a problem with the .44 ..

Though I am not sure all the tags I already added to mods are correct - that's why I want to maintain the practice to try identical actions with a merged and a bashed game, at least for a while; at the moment I look through my mods to see whether I should add a "scripts" tag anywhere.

One question: I use the "Tweak Names" option in Bash to reorder my inventory and the "Ingestibles"; the result is, imo, a much more neatly arranged order. Can I do something similar in Fo3edit?

Apart from renaming all items manually, no. Those game setting and name tweaking options are yet another feature of GB i love

Absolutely. I should repeat my question in the mod detective thread then to see whether some moder has found a solution.

Another question: Does a thread exist about "tags" added to mods by users? At the moment, most mods seem to be tagged inadequately and the experience of other users might remedy the situation.

Just the http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1098111-relz-boss-f-thread-2/ and Gary bash thread - well the latest finally got the name Wrye Flash, so I'm gonna stick with that.

Yeah it is interesting - tagging and wrye bash development is driven a lot by mod makers with Oblivion and more so with user feedback with Fallout.

Well, as a casual user I have only used the merged patch in FO3 and I have had no problems with it for years. The reason that I never bothered to use garybash is that FO3Edit is:

1. A tool I already know that gets my job done
2. Pretty simple to use since all you need to do is a right click
3. A tool I have anyway for its masterUpdate feature

I don't have a problem with garybash though, I just don't really need it

You don't know that you need it since you haven't used it Original Wrye Bash for Oblivion seemed quite intimidating to me at first, but now that i've learned to use it, i couldn't live wihout it.

Speaking of, does Valda or anyone else have plans to port it to New Vegas? No doubt there'll be a overhaul like FWE or FOOK2 for it too. It may have a 'hardcoe' mode, but i believe, until proven wrong, that it's "casual hardcoe" compared to FWE

Difference between a merged and a bashed game

I added http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=11418 Saturday to my load order and have experienced a difference between a merged and a bashed patch and would like to know if anyone could confirm this and/or point me to the mistake in my load order.

The difference is the cost of food; IMCN makes food more costly and I can see the result in my merged game immediately:

With barter 41, I can sell Mole Rat Meat for 14 caps, Pickle Jar for 8 and Radroach Meat for 5, to name just three examples.

Then I have tried a bashed game, same load order, and the greater costs were not included:

Barter 41: Mole Rat Meat 3, Pickle Jar 3, Radroach Meat 2 caps.

So, any idea what I did wrong?

I might have made a mistake in load order after I deactivated http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=8976 yesterday and added http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=13698, the http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=9592 and the updated http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=712, because I'm quite sure (but not definitely) that the higher costs were active in my previous bashed game.

Try tagging the

13  IMCN.esm...60  IMCN - FWE Compatibility and Ingestibles.esp61  IMCN - MMM Meats, Bloods, and Eyeballs.esp

plugins with "stats" (or was it statistics?), and rebuild the patch (and obviously import statistics from those plugins).

To add my 2 bottlecaps to this discussion, I personally feel grateful that both tools exist : WyreBash is available for those powermod users (such as myself ) who wish to create the perfect merged patch, and FO3Edit is a godsend for editing mods without relying on the GECK (which IMHO is unwieldy), and provides a simpler, friendlier, kinder version of Merged Patch which for most intents and purposes works quite well...

So peace be to all, and hopefully both tools will be ported over to FW3:NV when it's finally out

@thommaal
You could take a look in FO3Edit to figure out which mods in your load order changes the food. This can also tell you if the food is merged into the bashed patch or not.

Edit: Do as ToJKa suggests

@ToJKa, :facepalm: , should have thought about this myself.

...

Okay, tried it and achieved a semi-success: The Pickle Jars, Muffins etc. are now as expensive as they should be; the meat, however, is still vanilla-cheap. Obviously, I missed something. Will follow Zumbs advice.

edited to add:

... ah yes, I simply forgot one check mark before rebuilding my bashed patch. Now, everything looks great. Thanks!

I think, I should write Imp that his mod needs a stats tag to work reliably, so that he can add this info for all the other users.

I dropped the info, thanks again, and now I'm going to look through my mods to see where I might need to add another stats-tag.

Uuuh,nice to know. I'll add that right now.

Yeah,there is really need for more GaryBash-love in the Modders-Area.

It's interesting to see,how different people see the whole Fo3Edit - Garybash thing. For some it's more difficult to use Fo3Edit and others it's Garybash.
But i agree that Garybash is more intuitive to handle. If there would be more support with tags it would be quite as powerfull as in Oblivion.

I find it pretty ridiculous, that someone opens a new thread, to find out if he can safely use a merged patch with a bashed patch, and then a bunch of geeks show up to start a fight, about which tool is the better one. It's pretty annyoing, because the initial reason why I consulted this thread, was, to find out if I can safely use booth patches together. Kids are trivial and so their arguments are. Please bash yourself in another thread and if you've found peace, merge yourselfs like lovers do^^

So, can I now use booth paches safely together? Or is this an absolut no go?

Guys, question was simple- what better to use. bashed or merged patch?
Answer will be simple. If you don't know the difference between both, it is better to use merged patch, cos it is much easier to use.
Later, when you will have some experience, you will be able to try bashed patch and all it's possibilities.
Everything else is a simple difference of opinions and does not matter in the light of a given question.


Yes, you can, if you know how and if you really need this

No you don't want to do that. That was already answered above. It is one or the other.

The Merged patch does basic merging and the bashed patch does advanced merging. At the very least use the Merged patch (beginner step that is the minimum requirement) after time and experience and to manage more mods then move to the Bashed patch which does everything the Merged patch does plus more.

One or the other. Not both - that really is not ever necessary.

Doing so probably won't break your game though but having the Merged patch load before the Bashed patch is useless because the Bashed patch will do the same thing and win the conflict anyway. Loading it after the Bashed patch could potentially cause the things imported into the Bashed patch to not show up right and undo the more part of the bashed patch.

As I can see- he wand to do this, but I don't know why.