Hello everyone at Bethesda and here in the community,

the intention of this post is not to rant, to whine or to convince someone of my opinion. It is just a message from my heart.

I have been an addicted RPG gamer since 1986, and I still am. From my good old Commodore Amiga up to the PC platform, I have been playing a huge amount of fantasy RPGs. Games from SSI, Bioware, 3DO, some others... and... of course... Bethesda.

I have been enjoying their Elder Scrolls Series immensely, still using the Tamriel Mousepad of the Daggerfall Limited Edition, even still wearing the included T-Shirt lol...

While each Elder Scrolls game had its strengths and weaknesses, they all are a special piece of software to me. Gifted me with so many hours of addicted gameplay, immersed in the Elder Scrolls universe.

I have had a lot of pleasant anticipation for Skyrim - until I found out about them using Steam. And after reading the Subscriber Agreement of Steam, I really cannot believe they are forcing us loyal customers to agree to such terms, to play a single player game.

I am not talking about Steam problems, or if it works for some and for some not, or the advantages/disadvantages. I am just shocked by the Subscriber Agreement we all have to accept...

I still have all the Floppies, CDs and DVDs of all the games I have acquired in all these years in my closet, and whenever I want to, I can take them out, install them, and play.

With Skyrim, not anymore!
I can still buy the DVD of Skyrim, but I don't own the right to use the software (!). If Valve decides to cancel my account for whatever reason, I cannot play Skyrim anymore on my PC, although I have a legal copy. Just Valve decides, if I am allowed to use my legal copy.... and if for whatever reason they decided to cancel my account, it's game over:

quote start
13. TERM AND TERMINATION

Either you or Valve has the right to terminate or cancel your Account or a particular Subscription at any time. You understand and agree that the cancellation of your Account or a particular Subscription is your sole right and remedy with respect to any dispute with Valve.
quote end

I cannot even fight against them in such a case, because the only right I have is to discontinue using Steam, and that means, stop playing Skyrim.

quote start
A. EXCLUSIVE REMEDY -- STEAM AND THE SOFTWARE.

YOU ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT YOUR SOLE AND EXCLUSIVE REMEDY FOR ANY DISPUTE WITH VALVE WITH REGARD TO STEAM OR THE SOFTWARE IS TO DISCONTINUE USE OF STEAM AND CANCEL YOUR ACCOUNT....
quote end

And although I bought the DVD, the software is not sold to me, it's more like a rental contract... and I can only use the software in accordance to their terms:

quote start
Valve hereby grants, and you accept, a limited, terminable, non-exclusive license and right to use the Software for your personal use in accordance with this Agreement and the Subscription Terms. The Software is licensed, not sold. Your license confers no title or ownership in the Software.
quote end


They even can just take our money without any rights of refund:

quote start
D. Survival of Terms.

Sections 2(D), 2(E), 7, 9, 10, 11, 13(D), 14, and 15 will survive any expiration or termination of this Agreement. Unused funds in your Steam Wallet are not refundable upon expiration or termination.
quote end


What kind of world are we living in?


Is this the common way to treat us customers nowadays? I have been working as a professional in Economics / Information Management for years now, so I am not a noob, neither to business decisions nor to the IT world.

Now if it comes to this, I cannot accept such terms. I don't want any 3rd party company being able to decide if or how long I can use a game that I have bought. Period. And no matter how much it hurts me deep inside, I won't buy this game. If we all blindly follow this, it won't ever change. Imagine, Skyrim is out and noone is buying... in no time this whole steam thing would be gone, I am sure. And only the PC customers are being punished with this, not the console players. Don't PC customers have any rights? Why are we treated like potential criminals that only buy a game if copy protection is included?

There have been cracks since computer games exist, and using Steam won't stop that.

Oblivion did not have a copy protection... I don't know the numbers (turnover, revenue etc), but I dare to say it was not a failure...

Fans, admirers of Bethesda's work and the loyal followers of their fantastic games willingly pay to play their games, I would say even more willingly without copy protection. Why we do that? Because paying some 60$ or whatever for a game that gives us so many hours of joy, is worth it. Compare it to going to the cinema... the price there is good for 2 hours of fun. If I sum up the hours I have been playing Elder Scrolls games, it's maybe some cents per hour.

Those who don't want to pay, won't do that now either.

It's a pity that loyal customers are treated this way. Even more so, that now Bethesda is doing this too. And no, I don't want to buy a Console to be able to play Skyrim. I have got my PC.

I have to say, that Bethesda did not lose a fan and admirer of their work, but they lost a loyal customer. To me... chapter closed.

:thumbsdown: I think it's absurd to let DRM prevent you from playing legendary games. To each their own, but no way.

The problem I have with DRM is that it is useless. Whether it be in the form of requiring a disc, forcing you to be online, or even in the old school days where you had to find a line inside the manual, DRM has failed at every turn. The ease and speed with which these people crack these games is laughable.

Why do they do it at all if it is useless?


Bleh, whatever.


Edit: I'll be buying it, DRM and all. If they cancel my Steam account because it's hacked or something, I'll just find a crack. I will not allow Steam to ruin the purchase.

I would say that you should not allow that to ruin your purchase either.

Don't get your steam banned?

Cliff-notes?

As a console gamer I not entirely sure of your perils. But let me get this straight: If you buy skyrim on the PC, you have to play through steam, and if your steam account gets cancelled you
are unable to play skyrim?
If that is the case then its not right.

INB4L, yup, that is correct.

Wouldn't talk about cracks on the forums against the forum rules

Anyway, DRM's are the most annoying and inconvenient thing ever invented I don't mind steam personally but occasionally it finds a way to piss me off *cough* offline mode *cough*

Exactly, that is the key issue to me. It is the conclusion you can get when carefully reading the Steam Subscriber Agreement. My legal understanding is still, if I buy a piece of software, I have got the right to use it, at any time I want, and how often I want, without having to beg a 3rd party to grant me this right. That is why I buy it, and not rent it

How often do accounts get cancelled and for what reasons?

Bethesda making an attempt to TOS players using mods? Is that what this is about??

Will b buying console version bekuz my komp would explode if I tried 2 run skyrim but I feel for your point it's a disturbing trend and like gun laws doesn't rlly stop the bad guys from gettin it/them but alienates loyal legal customers

just google, if you look at the results, obviously often enough...

the point is, that they HAVE the rights to cancel, and I have no rights to prevent them from doing so. Buying Skyrim, I would pay and pray. And that is not what I want to do. So I won't buy, no matter how hard it is to me ( and as a loyal fan and customer of their games, it is really hard to say no, honestly ).

No, I don't think so, but I have no experience regarding Steam and the use of mods.

The key point is, that Bethesda is not involved, if Valve cancels your account for whatever reason. Bethesda only chose Steam as the platform to enforce their copy protection and DRM. Maybe an economic decision, maybe beneficial contracts, I don't know why they chose Valve.

But to me, anything that might prevent me from using legally acquired software, is a no-go.

Easier said than done.

I've been receiving notification from Blizzard that a WoW account that I don't even have is going to be terminated... :whoops:

To the subject of the OP - that's why I buy my games on consoles now. I find console gaming to be so much easier - and dare I say "better" - than computer gaming.

Yep, it's disturbing. I use Steam and own several Steam games and for the most part is works fine, but when I think about the terms I have a feeling of being violated. This is true to some degree with all software as the only thing I actually own is the disk- AFAIK all software is granted to purchasers via license rather than transfer of ownership.

The future holds great uncertainty and intrigue... it is the dream of many IT gurus and leaders of IT industry to expand the notion of a "cloud" to all software (and indeed all digital information...), rendering all "sales" as extremely tenuous rentals, reserving the notion of real ownership only for whomever holds the highest level of copyright, and of course completely eliminating physical media. While this has advantages, the negatives will give pause to any who think it through... Brave New World is always around the corner.

you say you've been playing since 1986. I'd say it's safe to say that you're not some punk kid out to cause any problems. Skyrim, itself is a single player game, so you would pretty much keep to yourself. You're not kicking the hornet's nest in any way. It's thoroughly safe to say that your account would be just fine. A well-known company won't ruin their rep and kick your account without cause.

If that's not enough to comfort you or deter your worries, buy a console- I'll be playing on the xbox 360. Will I be missing out on Mods? sure. Will I have a few extra limitations than the PC version, sure... But I still have Skyrim, regardless.

OP is not the only person completely pizzed off with being forced to use Steam and it's rental agreement.

This is a whole other subject that I can go on forever and a day about.

Long story short: physical media ftmfw.

Can I point out that once you install the game they can't stop you playing it?

Don't connect steam to the internet after installation?
Why will it matter when you can create a new account or download the (thing that fixes this) when it comes out.

I still agree it's a disgrace that they're doing it but I don't see the point in complaining when there are so many workarounds

I might be wrong but I was pretty sure you only needed to use steam for the installation.

That sounds like one of those numerous scam e-mails doing the rounds. I`ve had tons of them


On Topic - I agree with you OP. I`m not particularly happy having to go through Steam to use my Skyrim. I wish Beth had taken a leaf from CDPR in this respect, when they launched The Witcher 2, we had a choice of Steam or downloading DRM free version from GOG. I chose the GOG version naturally, no DRM or future activations.

this is bad for us all
i do not have proof but i know people with alot of money are making decisions for all people world wide
this is all about money .. and choices many businesses and even nations and governments are being forced to obey ...
altho it is only being viewed at this moment by a skyrim game purchaser it is greater then this game and greater then people realize
its global ...

Another thing that will likely happen is all of the DLC and patches are likely to come through Steam. Besides this being a convenient distribution system for them, this will mean that you will need to connect to Steam again if you want any of that stuff.


But yeah, there are workarounds. However, some people aren't comfortable with the (fuzzy legal area) workaround.

Wait, do we must to buy it through Steam? What if I have physical copy of Skyrim? I'm confused now.

Wait. Let me get this straight...

Did this thread really go the route that a Bethesda and Steam business partnership is part of the Illuminati???