[katie TWAVA]

In the last couple of days I wanted to learn more about what Michael Kirkbride stands for, what he has created and what his role is now in the lore-making of Elder Scrolls.

I also wanted to find out about the fanfiction and fandom surrounding Morrowind and the lore about creation, gods and metaphysical stuff.

Morrowind was my first game, a fantastic experience I will never forget, but I never got that deep into the lore and the metaphysical side of it. I see myself has a philosophical and curious person, but "The 36 lessons of Vivec", "Loveletter from the 5th era" and "c0da" can be quite confusing to me. Don't get me wrong, t is very interesting and mindblowing. It really challenges my mind. But sometimes it just feels to "out there".

There's like a different fandom or belief system out there if you will(from my experience) that parted from the mainstream Elder Scrolls franchise between Morrowind and Oblivion. Many see MK as the REAL creator(or father) of TES-lore, and that Bethesda somehow have betrayed the legacy of Morrowind in their recent games.

Some(MK too?) also believe the lore should be discussed and shared, and that there is no real "canon" besides some of the basics regarding earliest creation and names like Vivec and Lorkhan(just two examples). It is like the lore is brought up to a higher level where everything is "canon" and "fanfiction" and exist at the same time.

I guess "open-source" is a keyword here. As a sidenote, I know that IRC is used quite a bit in the community.

I apologise for writing in "them" and "they" form, because I kinda feel I am standing outside this "phenomenon". And I don't know who you are. Well maybe I know of more now.

I like the metaphysical side of it even if I am a simple farmer if you will. It was great to read an ingame book in Skyrim that explained the real reason behind the Altmer banning Talos. They hate all that is mortal and want what was before. They see Tamriel as an eternal mortal prison. That simple information is massive to get from a computer game.

I must admit, I feel threatened by this "elitism". So I can't decide that I like the games for what they are? I have to ponder on the metaphysical stuff or I'm not a REAL lore-buff? I am exaggerating here, of course. But it's like this side-project going on in the forgotten places of the internet that I don't have access too.

So I hope none of you take this the wrong way, I am not accusing anyone. I don't agree on all of the views about lore, but I am also a curious Nord farmer looking up from my crops and wondering who is controlling all of this.

The 4th wall anyone....

Hope to see a vibrant discussion about this.

Last question: Is MK and Lady Nerevar really present in the Lorecast-videos?

[Rachel Briere]

Good questions, although they're really more "meta" than the sort usually brought up here. The TES lore fan community has really been around a long time now, but ideas and people tend to get recycled, and reappear in different forms over time...

As far as "weird non-game TES" and discussion thereof - it depends on the place, probably. This forum (not that's it's always the same) tends to just do the "talking about the lore as per games" angle. That's not a strict condition, just a tendency. You can definitely see threads that are about out-of-game lore here too. Basically, the rule (for me) is courtesy; I think it's fine to talk about anything within forum rules, but it's not fine to tell other people that their beliefs are wrong based on canonicity, outlandishness, unoriginality or anything else. I mean, these are games. The truth is not really that important.

On this site at least, lore discussion and fanfiction are separated into different forums. The distinction is not always obvious, but, again, it's not that important. They're just different boards, it's not hard to keep up with both.

One note - opinions are mixed about MK. And I don't just mean his work. He's human, after all. I would avoid being too personal about him and his role in TES (although questions of authorship and the development of the games are fine and interesting). The same is probably true of any prominent person in any similar fandom.

Back on subject, "metaphysical lore" has a number of different treatments. My current favourite perspective on the whole thing is to ignore metaphysics and treat it as religion, or history - examine people and their beliefs and assume that, while mythology has some sort of innate "will" in a magical world, divinity is not an objective thing. History, gods, and the shape of the universe - all the lore we have on this comes from people, who are fallible, but inspired. When we read "metaphysics", we are not understanding things directly, but we are understanding how the people of Tamriel think. At least, that's one take on it. There is also a body of thought that says that the divine and magical things in Tamriel are real enough that we actually gain an understanding of how they really are through the games and books.

And if something just seems really odd and out of place in your understanding of TES - you can either accept it, dismiss it, or take it as metaphor for something more familiar.

Re: lorecast: yes, I think they do. Those I believe are made by folks at /r/teslore, where MK shows up sometimes.

[Daddy Cool!]

From shoddy cast? no, their lore is usually not present because those videos tend to focus on what the games say.

IMO, the best way to put it is this: MK's non bethesda work might be canon, it might not be, it depends on your point of view.

Personally, I see it as a POSSIBLE option, one of the MANY possible options. and personally believe it is out of place in what TES is actually about. On the other hand, you will find most here on these forums treat MKs work as a canon above the game.

[Mariana]

Well shoddy cast also ignores lore from the games and/or has errors in it.

[Kelsey Anna Farley]

Lorecast by YT-user: memospore. Think it was Lorecast 02. Saw their names in a video-discussion. Don't think it has anything to do with Shoddycast.

Interesting what you say about canon. My impression is that most players either don't know who MK is, or they have a sort of peripheral understanding of what he have done for series, but concentrate on the "official" lore.

I think it's a minority(a large minority that is) that is actually treat all his non-Bethesda work as canon. Higher percentage in the lore section I reckon. I guess Most started playing Morrowind like I did.

70/30 maybe in the whole forum. Just my take on it.

That said, I consider some of his work outside Bethesda as canon. Just not all of it. It's hard to draw the line for me.

A couple of questions come to mind: What is the real ES-universe? Is it the concept of ideas, or do the ideas have to materialize into a game?

And also the time-travel, tech/sci-fi and the 4th wall stuff. I have to admit, it's mindblowing to think about. Maybe these bits of lore are intended to make us think about our own reality, and how real it really is. Kinda what the Wachowskis wanted with the Matrix. Getting awfully philosphical here but....

[Margarita Diaz]

Memospore is MK's youtube channel. He was using it for dropping clues in a sort of interactive game thing way back in february 2013, and has posted sporadically since then, until the lorecast. The memospore IRC channel (link in my sig) was created around the same time.

[Gen Daley]

sci-fi stuff is just an exploration of tes from a different angle. gotta remember mks a writer and enjoys doing this stuff, and just happens to share it with the rest of us. coda Is more like, if he can do it, why not everyone else?

like umpteen said though, if its too strange for you, take it as a metaphor for something fantasy based. or discard it