I know I've recently started an energy weapons build thread, but I've gotten bored with the character far too quickly. Energy weapons just don't do it for me for some reason; I need things that go boom. So I'm thinking of a non-Cowboy gun build that would make use of military-style semi-auto and full-auto weapons. Approximate progression is 9mm pistol- Service Rifle- 10mm SMG- Assault Carbine- LMG and Ratslayer- Sniper Rifle- All-American/AMR. Here's what I'm wondering about:

1) Small Frame is an obvious choice. Built to Destroy doesn't strike me as a very good trait choice for a character using full auto weapons, with their low crit chance multiplier and quick degradation rate. Trigger Discipline is supposed to be good for such weapons- but is it good enough to actually be worthwhile? Has anyone tried it? Or should I just go with Good Natured for the extra 20 skill points?

2) Is it still worthwhile to increase critical chance on such a character? Should the usual combination of Finesse + Better Criticals be kept or abandoned in favor of perks like Bloody Mess and Confirmed Bachelor which offer a "flat" damage boost? Will it make sense to use headwear other than 1st Recon beret?

3) How will LMG with AP ammo fare vs. Deathclaws?

1) Cant really comment on that, I usually stay away from traits.

2) I dont think that the extra damage you get from perks like bloody mess and confirmed bachelor is really worth spending a perk on. I'd stick with finesse amd better criticals because even on a weapon like the All American that only has a multiplier of one your still landing enough shots to crit fairly often.

3) Very good.

Bloody Mess is just too much fun to pass up, but it is optional, though. Trigger Discipline is helpful provided you DON'T use VATS. if you plan on doing so, then don't get Trigger Discipline. Oh, and with the upcoming patch, miniguns and assault carbines are going to become super deadly. If you're not a fan of strength, you might want to consider Weapon Handling, although i wouldn't recommend it (+2 starting, +1 implant, +1 Intense Training, +1 Remnants PA=10 STR). Intense Training is better than Weapon Handling in this case. Such a high STR is suitable for a Rambo Military build anyway.

I do tend to use VATS on occasion, but SMGs, Assault and Marksman carbines have AP cost of 20; with Trigger Discipline it will be 24- higher than a Brush Gun, lower than the Dinner Bell- and lower if compensated by VATS perks. I think I will actually still be able to use VATS when I absolutely have to, like when there's a danger of accidentally hitting bystanders. Most of the time I'll be able to "walk" my fire onto targets instead though. In either case it'll be an interesting challenge.

But going all the way to 10 STR with hard points... I don't know. Miniguns are too wasteful to be used in routine gameplay, and investing so much into a weapon that will only get used a few times throughout the game doesn't strike me as a very sound choice.

Then again, there aren't many non-VATS perks that benefit this kind of build. Let's try an approximate perks progression:

2- Intense Training (Because there's nothing else).

4- Educated

6- Comprehension

8- Strong Back

10- Finesse

12- Silent Running

14- Jury Rigging (Assuming Repair 90).

16- Better Criticals

18- Pack Rat

20- Hand Loader? (Not particularly useful for the build itself because 5.56 and 5mm have no custom rounds option, but maybe to give Raul or Boone some extra punch?)

22- ?

24- ?

28- ?

30- ?

Basically, there are 4 slots to fill and no more perks that would be very useful for off-VATS combat. It is possible to take Intense Training enough times to build up ST for the minigun, yes. Or I could take Math Wrath + Grim Reaper Sprint + Action Boy and throw in Commando for good measure to offset the AP penalty of Trigger Discipline and make the build VATS-viable? (Unlike Fast Shot, the effect of TD CAN be mitigated completely). Or maybe build up my surviveability with Toughness and Life Giver?

It's worth remembering that LMG actually has a higher DPS than the standard Minigun.

First off, you won't get more "BOOM" from guns than you will Energy Weapons. Bloody Mess + (Perk which makes Energy Weapons cause baddies to explode) makes for an INSANE display. The perk makes it so when you kill with an energy weapon, the person "Explodes" with a plasma-based explosion which damages others nearby. If another is killed by it, then go boom as well.

I'd also suggest energy weapons for this type of build while running the EW Denerf mod.
I suggest them because their is a huge abundance of ammo (I made two separate mods which make plasma rifles use 1 ammo, not two. And Laser Rifles use the same Ammo as their pistol counterparts. (If you'd like them, I can upload for you). Also, there are ALOT more workbenches for energy weapon ammo in the game, than there are for regular ammo. Since I play where I fast travel as little as possible, thats a huge deal.

Next, you should never run with Small Frame. Ever. It's NOT worth it. The +1 Agility really doesn't matter. It won't enhance you enough for the small benefit you gain. The weapon decay is, trust me, isn't even noticeable. If a weapon decays fast and you have that trait, it's because the weapon in general has a very very low health to it. I'd easily say go for::

Build To Destroy // Four Eyes
Build To Destroy // Wild Wasteland

You can also substitute one of the latters for the better VATS accuracy if you plan on using VATs alot.

As for Perks, you'll easily gain enough crit via finesse to have 3 luck. My Energy Weapon character crits standing up all the time and he's got 3 luck. (I also use a mod which removes certain perks and you get them based on your skills (Like an Energy Weapon perk I will get when I get 75 EW or something).

I also say "avoid" bloody mess if you plan to play NCR. This is because i'v had a few quests where they want you to return "full heads", and bloody mess turns them into "mangled" heads.


As for LMG against deathclaws. I'v heard some people spam ammo with them, however the best idea via guns is to just use the AM rifle. Makes stuff dead, period.


I find my Energy Weapons Character is really fun, when you have the right mods. There is always ammo around if you like to explore, and there are always decent weapons (I'll tell ya, all them ghouls at REPPCOMM sure do make for a nice ammo area).

No, you don't understand. I like to hear BOOM, not Pew when I pull the trigger. I like to see the bullet travel. I like to see a body drop, not melt, and I DONT like leaving permanent, non-removeable piles of ash and goo on the landscape, especially not in the Fiend Territory to which I return many times to clear it out for the loot. I also like to waltz into the Gun Runners and have a proper selection of weapons and mods available. The Van Graffs are a poor substitute, and preclude me from completing Cass' quest.


Four Eyes is a HORRIBLE trait. You're basically stealing a character point from yourself for no good reason. You need a base PE of 6 to qualify for Better Criticals, and you don't need PE any higher than that.

WW is kind of useless.

The +AG from Small Frame is not just +AG. It's +1 S.P.E.C.I.A.L point which can be put into Strength, or Intelligence, or Charisma to beef up the companions, or anywhere else.

The weapon decay with Built to Destroy is quite noticeable on automatic weapons. Moreover, automatic weapons don't gain much from a higher critical change. The LMG has the critical % modifier of zero; you literally cannot EVER crit with it. Other automatics have a modifier of 1. Sniping gets you automatic sneak crits most of the time. So I don't think it makes much sense to invest too much into increasing crit chance for this particular build.


But you need Luck 6 for Better Criticals.

Good Natured, and Trigger Discipline are good traits fr your build. You could also take Small Frame, and you'll probably eventually get the Tough Guy challenge to counter it. It's up to you. Don't take Hand Loader, as Boone is fine with his default weapon. Just have an AMR on him, and give him some ammo for it during tough fights (be sure to take it away from afterwards, as you don't want him wasting it on rats and freeside thugs). Grim Reaper's sprint might be useful to you, but automatics and snipers are best used outside of VATS. Also, you can consider going into explosives and maybe getting Demo Expert (2X or if you want, 3X). if you want to use companions and aren't playing on hardcoe, strong back and pack rat are pretty useless as well. Replace Hand Loader, Pack Rat, and strong Back, With 2X Demo Expert and a VATS perk of your choice (GRS or Commando). Also, you can take out Silent Running (just get the sneak up, but don't bother with this perk) for whatever you like. And you still have four perks left to do what you want.

1. Just dont get the trait.

2. Plan on going in the navy?

3. LMG can wreck anything dude.

The LMG is not as useful as some people think. With no way to craft 5.56 AP rounds, its not an automatic kill Deathclaws every time type deal. With the coming patch, the 5mm weapons are going to be far superior; 5mm will now automatically ignore 15DT, a much cheaper alternative to 5.56 AP. Also, 5mm AP is going to ignore 25DT, so it will make the Miniguns and Assault Carbines very powerful weapons.