When playing Morrowind, I went through quite a few lock-picks no matter what I as the player actually did. The skill of my character determined my success. I have played Oblivion so much, I can make it through the entire game with a single lock pick because I as the player am so good at that minigame (it is quite repetitive and not too hard to master). My character's skill level only determines my consequences if I as the player mess up.

Either way I am playing a role, but there is more to my actual skill as opposed to the role in OB. How do you feel about minigames in an rpg?

character skill should be the main thing that matters, especially in things like stealth. i can't for the life of me do the lockpicking minigame, but i roleplay characters who are good at lockpicking... doesn't work. with things like combat a bit more player skill is ok (eg. if you're swinging away from the person you shouldn't hit), but it too should be dictated by the skill of your character.

The point of making things dependent on skill is so that your character is bad in the beginning and good at the end. Same reason everything being scaled is no good.

A minigame is ok, IMO, as long as it's realistic. Neither Oblivion's or Fallout 3's were, but a combination of the two might be.

But, if it's a minigame, it might as not be a skill at all. Just a thing to do. Since all your characters will only be as good as you are, regardless of your skill.

I've rarely come across a mini-game that was implemented decently. Personally, I don't like them.

I chose the last option, but I have to qualify that:

The basic concepts behind the lockpick minigames in both OB and FO3 were fine, but the character's Lockpick skill should have had a profound impact on how difficult the mini-game was. In other words, the difficulty of the mini-game should have been based on the DIFFERENCE between the character's skill and the lock rating. 10 points harder, and it should be all but impossible, regardless of how amazing your abilities are as a player. 10 points easier, and you'd have to be wearing thick leather gloves with mittens over those to fail at it, even after a few drinks.

The Speechcraft mini-game was totally unrelated to speech, and was pretty stupid, in my opinion. One of the first mods I downloaded for OB was Persuasion Overhaul, to change Speechcraft back to being a meaningful character skill as in the earlier games, rather than a useless point-sink.

The mini-game can be a fun way of having the player be able to "influence" the event (or a stupid idea in the case of the Speechcraft "wheel"). It should NOT be a way to determine the outcome regardless of the character's abilities.

FO3 used skills as a cap on the player's option to even attempt to play the mini-games on locks or terminals that were "above their level", but it had pathetically little effect on the diffuculty. That was a small improvement over OB's total irrelevance of character skills, but still a poor way of handling it.

Mini-games can add to the enjoyment of the main game if handled properly. Those in OB were NOT handled properly, and those in FO3 were handled only marginally better.

Completely agree. Perhaps Novice/Apprentice/Journeyman etc should determine which level of chests can be picked? For example, very easy chests can be attempted even by novices, but easy chests require apprentice level, and average chests journeyman level etc.

Also, who says mini-games have to be related to skills? Ever played The Witcher? I got hooked playing Poker Dice with the world's gamblers in that game, and i'm sure gambling games could be popular in Skyrim's mead halls. Red Dead Redemption also has loads of awesome gambling mini-games. They really add another level to how the denizens of a world entertain themselves, and how you as a player can get involved with those denizens.

The only minigames I want are the pub games present in Fable 1 (not 2)... well, something like that anyway. Not a minigame for lockpicking and definately not speechcraft, just a little side game to play when you are bored.

They shouldn't be alternatives to character skill, for one. But if they were fun and actually improved the game, then sure.

But make the Skeleton key less broken. It basically made the lockpick minigame "press X to win."

Because the Elder Scrolls games are RPGs. And RPGs are character-skill-based.

I like mini games like lock picking. Its a quick little break from the same repetitive actions in Oblivion or Fallout 3. Fallout 3 had hacking on top of just picking locks, which I found to be rather archaic and a lot less fun.

I'm gonna go off on a stretch and say, what if the lock picking skill was not a skill and was totally based on the player's ability to understand the complexity of a lock? In Fallout 3 you were able to feel the lock, in Oblivion the tumblers would move a little slower, giving you a vague idea of when to push it up.

I prefer fallout 3's method better. It still gave you a limitation to what locks you could pick, but the mini game itself was more streamlined and like I already said, you had to feel it, rather than watch it.

So in short. As long as the mini games stay true to a simple, non complex mini game. They wouldn't hurt the rpg experience at all.

The persuasion mini-game was utter cow-pat in my opinion, it had nothing to do with persuasion. The persuasion overhaul mod was how persuasion should have been implemented in the first place. For those who don't know, the system is influenced by the NPC's race and class in the game, and you are given one option to joke/admire/coerce/boast. As your skill increases you get a couple of perks in the skill such as identifying which actions are bad and even receiving a sort of bonus for making it to 100. Every action has a chance of failing or succeeding, some more than others and some with a greater effect than others depending on that specific character. Skill increased the good effects while decreasing the bad effects, your character's race and current factions can also influence the outcome of an action. This system took so many things into account and was much better than the original persuasion method.

I don't have any serious qualms with the lock-picking mini-game, lockpicking as a whole needs a huge overhaul. No mini-games, lockpicking makes all the difference in-game for a multitude of prizes such as treasures and secrets, it really shouldn't be something determined by how good the timing of the player is. If they do continue this new lockpick mini-game trend i'd like to see that locks be divided per 10 skill points. If you don't pass the skill level then you have no chance of being able to unlock the chest, unless you try a dice-roll which you can only do twice! No more repetitive clicking! I'd also like to see the return of traps, but I've written a bulk already so i'll shut up now

I hated the mini games. I found no purpose of the persuasion mini game in Oblivion.I thought the lock pick mini game was different, but then realized WTF, it has no puropse since if you can be really good at it and pass all the time, when in a RPG you should be failing most times.

i don't like Oblivion's lockpick game. between Morrowind and Oblivion i'd say morrowind was better. Fallout 3's lockpick game was a little better. it limited you like morrowind did if your character was not skilled enough. but my problem with Fallout's lockpick thing was this: say you had skill level 50, that means that the next 24 points you put in it are only for the sake of being able to to pick the next "level" of locks.

i'd like a hybrid of Morrowind and Fallout lock picking. use a lock "point system" like Morrowind where locks would be lock level 5, 10, 15, 20, etc... and you have to have a greater than or equal to lockpick level to do the mini game. that way you get use out of more of your points. every 5 would be helpful instead of every 25

I think the only thing that stats really do in the mini game is if you hit the X buttonon the 360, not shure what it is on the PC. Break the lock I think it's called. I hope there is no mini games in TES V. Anyone herd if this will happen again or not? No rumours on this?

I'm definitely against minigames that mimick skills. Yes minigames like poker in pubs or some such, might be interesting, but please no lockpicking minigame and no speechcraft minigame either. Both were awful in Oblivion. And unlike the majority here, I think that the lockpicking minigame of Fallout was even more terrible. You have a skill of 24, you cannot even attempt this lock. You have a skill of 25, you can open this with ease! No, please do not impose any artificial limits like this. I think that Morrowind had the lockpicking about right. You had a "magnitude" of a lock and you skill against it. even at level 5 you could attempt a 100 level lock, but the possibility for success was close to none (yet I think that it existed) The closer your skill was to the "magnitude" of the lock, the more chances you had to unlock it. Also, where there are 5 levels of locks in Oblivion and Fallout, Morrowind had 100 levels of locks - that shouts more diversity to me. And as far as the idea of removing the lockpicking skill from the game, well, I think that this skill is a very stand alone thing that sure should remain. I really do not wish to be forced to loose most of the equipment in locked chests just because I as a player did not master some silly minigame.

I whole-heartedly agree, the only reason people were happier about Fallout 3 lock-picking was that the skill had some actual value, unlike in oblivion where anyone with a skill level of 5 can open a 'very hard' lock. The problem is with the skill perks system, the system needs to be changed so that a skill means you are better at something, not that you can attempt different things, if they change the skill system then I believe they have more room to make the skills themselves better.

If lockpicking was something akin to Thief, then I'll support it.

My gripe with "character skill should be the only thing that matters" is that it can get downright irritating if you're unskilled and have to sit there hitting the button forty times and waiting for the RNG to decide it likes you enough to let you through.

There's got to be some sort of solution between the OB, MW, Fo3 methods, but I'll be damned if I could tell you what it is. I would at least like a third option (in addition to Security and Magic) where you can smash your way through it with a weapon, but would add noise and possible breakage factors if whatever's in the chest/cabinet/etc is fragile..

It's not really an issue for me as far as OB, because the second I hit level ten I went for the Skeleton Key quest, anyway.

In general I don't like mini-games. Particularly when skills are supposed to represent your character's abilities, and instead they rely more on the player's abilities. I think Morrowind handled lockpicking (and to a lesser extent, speechcraft) best. The only thing that was missing was a better animation for it. I can understand the desire to have a more realistic feel to lockpicking, hence the mini-game. But as of yet I have not seen one that is implemented to my liking, nor can I think of a way to marry mini-games with skill checks so that they work in harmony. The one area that I think mini-games actually work pretty well is as pub games.

The key word in that sentence is 'unskilled'. If you don't have the skill required to do something, then why would you expect to succeed?



I can definitely agree with this. Combat classes should be able to break open locked doors and chests, but with the probability of being detected and/or damaging items within the container.

Morrowind's lockpicking is... well... I don't have much GOOD to say about it other than "there were more than 5 locks in the game". It's pretty much "point turny thing in general direction of lock and ATTACK until you win" or "get a better lockpick and try again". That's it. Traps are even worse. I don't exactly think Oblivion or Fallout 3 did GOOD, but at least opening a lock wasn't "change from weapon to pointy thing and attack".

Persuasion... Morrowind = useless and frustrating, Oblivion = useless and boring. Take your pick which is worse, neither has any gaming-wise redeeming value. Morrowind -> Bribery is ordinary and successful. If you're rich enough, you can be as loved as you want to be. Oblivion = "Gee, how can I get the big wedge on X, then the small wedge on Y?" That accomplished, someone who necessarily hates your guts will adore you. svck and MORE svck, in my opinion.


The general idea of persuasion overhaul is pretty much "golden", except for one thing I'm not sure about. (Confession: I never get around to downloading and installing it). It's not too clear (to me) whether PO ties your persuasion options to anything outside of the minigame. For me, it's sort of a breaking action to come fully loaded with jokes, compliments, and threats out of the gate. Or gain more just because I've kissed butt well. If that could be tied to the game world (so you can tell Dar Jee's jokes, for example), I think the idea is both intuitive and immersive: want to impress someone, go accomplish... something. Want to make someone pale with fear? Don't assassinate the Toughs. Let them taunt you a bit and see if something good slips. Want to tell jokes? Save up for a joke book at the local bookshop. As your skill increases, people can be persuaded to offer new material, thus expanding your horizons. (Of course, if PO works this way, Bethesda should go for it).


Lockpicking, on the other hand... yes, we need the varied difficulty from Morrowind... and that's about it. If you want traps back, go play Return to Krondor. You'll see why I really can't call Morrowind's "traps" anything other than "random reason to carry extra objects". It will also give you a few ideas about why the interactive ones aren't that great, either.
For those who can't track it down, it's like this: In Morrowind, Oblivion, and Fallout 3, a lock is a lock. In Morrowind, it might also require you to switch to a second device and stab the door or container with that until you succeed. In RtK, a lock is a lock (booooo! Betrayal at Krondor did better), but a trap is a complex mechanism that can be deactivated with special tools. Complex, as in "has many parts", many as in "not identical" (and for RtK, it also means 3). You need a full toolkit to disarm most traps effectively (there are 5 tools available, and you have all or none, though).

Here's what I'd propose: Locks can be of multiple types, not strictly pin-tumbler. That means combination, wafer (generally similar to pin-tumbler, but it gives Beth a good excuse to require additional gear to really be a thief), pin-tumbler, and other locks are all present in various ranges of difficulty. A given lock will have both a complexity and a sensitivity that combine to make an overall difficulty. For example, a lock with 7 pins, but a matched set ofparticularly poor springs is probably easier than a three-pin lock that has two very sensitive springs and one normal spring. In addition, there can be multiple types of pins present in some locks, requiring two distinct lockpicks to open it. The number of pins should be between 3 and 10, in my opinion, unless some particularly easy locks are required. As character skill increases, you should get a finer degree of control in how you move the pins, rather than just "slower pin rebound". In addition, you should have multi-stage traps. Now, here's the key balancer: areas well off the beaten path are where you'll find the sick 10 pin locks that need every possible lockpick AFTER you disarm a very complicated trap. We shouldn't be subjecting people to that in the main game, but putting it out there as a challenge for the people who enjoy that sort of thing.

Speaking of difficulty, assassins and thieves should have to face locks that are noticably harder than what you'd need as a Fighter or Mage. Not the top-of-the-line locks. We want to save them for SPECIAL occasions, of course. However, it should be "really freaking hard" to be a high-level thief with low security. You'd need to master a game that no longer has fixed rules and you'd need to do so without picking too many "unnecessary" locks. Unlikely, to say the least.

On tools: Lockpicks should break, but not as easily as in Oblivion, nor as regularly as Morrowind (ie, no fixed uses). Different kinds of lockpicks should break easier or harder. Actually breaking a lockpick should be BAD, but not Fallout 3 failed Force bad. You've broken off a pick... part of the pick is still inside. Solution? a tool to remove the debris. Don't have it? Can't pick it. Do have it? back in business! There should not be full toolsets available in-game. Period. No one-stop shopping, either. Instead, you should have to obtain your toolkit in the following ways: kill a master thief and take it, collect indiviudal pieces as you find them (there should be at least one full set spread out as fixed loot), or earn the trust of various persons dealing in questionable goods and deeds to buy the less common parts. Basic lockpicks shouldn't be rare, but should be less available than Oblivion. (Think Shady Sam if he only sold for a few hours at night and only sold 5 picks a day).

For the hardcoe sneak, each pick attempt could take a certain amount of time and make a noise for a certain number of feet, although by default both should be 0. Sliders to configure these options would be entirely in keeping with the traditional difficulty slider, and therefore shouldn't be a problem to implement. It won't make everyone happy, but it's not the magic rotating wand of open lock, and it requires a bit more effort to be a lockpicking god than per-pin pattern finding.