I miss some of them, namely attributes that affected physical peformance...

Its a crying shame they are gone.

And to all those that say they did not work properly, that is wrong.
They did not work properly in Oblivion and only in Oblivion, because of the horrid, horrid level scaling.

There was zero problem with attributes in both Daggerfall and Morrowind.

^this

No more mucking about on a spreadsheet figuring optimum training schedules...

And I hated being able to climb mountains in a couple of bounces just because I spent all my time mountain climbing.
(still do in Skyrim ... found a nice axe that way)

It was an option. You could beat TESIII just as easily leveling up "naturally".

How did the attribute system "Define" your character? Everyone's attributes started the same depending on race...

In fact, I found it detracted from defining my character: Does an endurance of 38, strength of 30 and Intelligence of 40 mean my character's a mage instead of a Warrior? Or does it mean I'm still in the process of trying to fix the attribute imbalance of my race.

doublemyspeed dot com

(kidding, dont go there!! lol)

It always amuses me how people call a simple list of 8 attributes a "spreadsheet", like it's somehow confusing. I don't think they realise how dumb it makes them sound.

If you don't like stats, there are plenty of action-adventure games out there for you to play. :rolleyes: It's ridiculous that RPG fans get given a watered down character development system just because some gamers out there find a basic RPG stats page overwhelming.

I know and while I'm not a min/maxer, it grated every time I levelled up and only got the option of 2 or three x3s on my stats. Not the absolute value mind, just knowing that it could have been x4s and x5s.
With my current char, I still have to decide between the 3 stats left and, honestly?, I would prefer if that was allocated automatically as well.
I guess I'm a pure roleplayer at heart, only really interested in which clone i'm on, and who I can dob in to the Computer.


Sorry, i get paranoia attacks....

I'm talking more about the end-game results. Your argument is not very sound, as we all know that if you start a new Nord character, the skills and (non-existent) stats will be exactly the same. The more you play it though, the more your characters starts to gain it's own uniqueness due to the play-style of the player.

As far as the point you made about the attribute imbalance, this could be done away with in a new system. We could simply turn to a fallout style mode of play where you have a certain amount of attributes to spend at character creation, and have a higher attribute cap. The cap on attributes was 9 in fallout, but I think something closer to 20 would be more appropriate for Skyrim, considering that the level cap is a lot higher.

I would also like to see forced skill bonuses completely removed, and either have them all set to 15 (base), or have a system where you can choose to start off with +5 in ~3 skills and +10 in one skill, but not without a price of having to add -5 to ~3 skills. This way you don't have to fall into the stereotype of each race. I understand that the races are supposed to be more or less proficient at certain skills than other races, but this could easily be generated through the NPCs' stats, and have the player's stats become totally customizable(with a fair balance, of course).

And the way you gain new attributes, I think when you level up, you should get 1 perk and 1 attribute point to add to any attribute of your choice. This sounds very simple and fun to me.




I repeat, I am not suggesting that we return to the Oblivion system, or even the morrowind system, entirely. I simply want attributes. A better system of attributes implemented, one that takes all of the best qualities of oblivion, morrowind, and fallout, and adds new improvements to make it more enjoyable to play.

1 skill increase = slight improvement in skill performance in both systems. Probably more significant in the old one.
1 perk = massive bonus to a skill you may have never used.
1 attribute point = slight performance improvement in multiple skills, with the previously-unused potential to do more.

There's the difference: 11 attribute points wouldn't make the game stupid easy. The 11 perks I haven't assigned are enough to remove any incentive to keep playing. Put them in bows, and I'll one-shot half the world. Put them in Enchanting or alchemy, and I make broken potions and enchantments. Put them in two-handed, and a skill I've used for 1 dungeon suddenly does 40% extra damage before I hit the second tier of perks.

If I had points to put into an attrib, it would be a SMALL change. Not a "click here four times and sneak attacks oneshot draugr scourges."



Now, to others: NO ONE WANTS TO RETURN TO THE OLD MULTIPLIER SYSTEM. Quit equating it with stats, when we've got a huge body of work from modders that demonstrates that there were clearly better attribute designs. It's a strawman argument that "Attributes mean +5 multipliers and min/maxing", because dozens of people since the days of Morrowind have designed working, enjoyable alternatives.

And yes, using GCD, you could forget there were attributes because it wasn't a micromanage situation. I'd bet 80%+ of the people wanting attributes LIKED it that way.

Finally:


So instead, we get "increasing Stamina to increase carrying capacity". Like every one of my coworkers except one has been doing. Sounds to me like we're still increasing one thing to increase something else.

This is what I was thinking when this topic came up. The current system is more organic, but if you really insist that stats come back then I think they should be allocated automatically depending on what skills you used to gain the level. I would much rather just play the game than worry about 1) how many points I have and 2) where to put those points. At first I thought the perk system was clunky, but now I'm liking it with two exceptions:

I don't like not being able to reset the points and re-arrange my character's skills. If I pick something and don't like it, then I'm basically screwed if I haven't saved before I did it.

and

I would like to have a way to keep gaining perk points after maxing out the levels. There is already a mod to convert dragon souls to perk points though so no worries there.

IRL if we work on skills/activities we can keep trying until we get it right, and there really isn't a limit to the number of different things we can become good at in life. I don't see why the game should be limited aside from preserving "balance". Fortunately this is a sinlge-player game, so balance is whatever I decide it is in the end.

I would love for someone to elaborate on why perks are better when you need to waste 2 points just to back stab harder with a dagger. Why do I need to waste 2 points on crit and recovering more arrows to move faster with a drawn bow? There's many more examples in there. Majority of them are doing what just having a higher skill level should have accomplished.

I really wonder if anyone supporting this kind of perk system has actually encountered a system that isn't broken. The mod that gets rid of perk pre-requisites is the best thing to happen to this game.

The game feels very hollow without Attributes. I've already said it elsewhere, they took the easy way out cutting them down rather than fixing and improving. They only have as much use as the developers let them like Personality/Charisma. If you don't like dealing with those numbers maybe you should be asking for an auto-allocation feature rather than total removal of features that many enjoyed.

Some perks are two powerful for you to buy them with a single perk point.

What does that matter when you still need a skill level to get them in the first place? If that was the reasoning they should have just made those the multi-point perks.

The developers aren't taking anything away. They're performing a service for you.

Consider making a sandwich for lunch.

Skyrim is like going to your kitchen and selecting the bread, meat, veggies, cheese, and condiments and slapping it together. Yum.

In previous games, you had to bake the bread from scratch, butcher the meat, grow the veggies, etc.

Or, put another way, how many of you (especially in the United States) would choose to drive a vehicle with a manual transmission over an automatic transmission? I understand that some people feel they're not really driving unless they have the total control afforded by a standard gearbox, and I can appreciate that. But I would also hazard a guess that most people would rather just get in the car and go where they want and still be able to derive a significant amount of utility and enjoyment from the experience.

Simply put.... This system is progress toward actual role-playing. The notion that numerical evaluations of attributes and role-playing are interdependent is popular but false.

Attributes have another important function : restricting equipment you wear. For example in Diablo, you needed 45 Strength to wear scale armour if I remember correctly. Now in Skyrim a wimpy mage can IMMEDIATELY wear full daedric with no consequences at all. If attributes were present, mage couldn't wear heavy armour unless he invested heavily in Strength and that's what we call a build (in this particular example, a Battle Mage: Strength + Intelligence). Increasing those attributes would also provide a very nice status of your avatar's growth (he's becoming stronger / more intelligent etc.)

But in Skyrim there is completely no "problem", anyone wears whatever he likes, which is a bit stupid if you forgive me saying so. Additionaly, there is no distinction between strong character and skilled character: you can't have stupid orc that uses only strength to wield his weapon, this has been degenerated to single skill value. There you have it, a feature that was present in rpgs almost since the dawn of time - removed, simplyfying even more this poor genre, which already is almost indistinguishable from adventure games. In TES 6 they will most probably remove those 3 attributes and still many will justify it.

Honestly I barely notice any difference at all. Except for speed not getting faster.

There.. there are cars where you dont manually have to switch gear?

:boggled:

Boy, living in the future is great, what will they think of next.
I wonder if they are legal in Europa, I dont think Ive ever seen one.

On topic, while it may be so that roleplaying does not need to be a number thing only, it is where I and many other old school RPG'ers come from.
I came from tabletop RPG's to computer ones, and to me an RGP is the numbers.
While on Mario 1 I could jump around and change my strength and powers by collecting mushrooms or flowers, I was basically the same guy the whole game.

In an RPG, I built my guy during the game. And to do that I used numbers.
That is why a game like Morrowind is heaven for an RPG'er like me, because it offered such an amazing amount of control over those numbers.
The spellsystem allowed for such control over the character and gameworld, sheer heaven.

(Did you know you can permanently turn hostile outcast Ashlanders into peaceful NPC's by first casting calm and then getting their disposition to 100?)

Just one example.
Now in Skyrim I am stuck with insurmountable barriers in a supposedly open world game. (I can go down most things, but I cannot go up most things, or, not easily.)
There are no more attributes to build my character out of.
I run the same speed the entire game, same as jump height.
I cannot make my own spells and am stuck with someone elses idea of a mage.
6 apparel slots opposed to Daggerfall's 20+.

Skyrim is a wonderful game, but for me it really isnt much of an RPG.

Unless I missed something, you don't get the full AR value of the piece if your skill isn't up to snuff. However, even if so I don't think that's a "good" reason for attributes. Despite not having ever worn heavy armor in my life, if someone presented me a set I could figure out how to put it on and it would provide some protection from harmful things. What you should have more of a problem with is this:

How likely is it that you will find a pair of boots that fit you perfectly? How likely is it that EVERY pair of boots fits you perfectly?

Equipment restriction based on attributes isn't really logical unless you are very weak. If you had another method of penalizing me for wearing stuff I'm not used to (lower AR value, movement penalties, etc.) then it would make more sense. Of course that really has nothing to do with attributes.

I'm not entirely sure on how it's set up for AR, but for damage for weapons, I know that skill level has nothing to do with how much damage you do. You have to spend points in perks to make any difference.

Not sure about your game, but I have the option to level up or not. If you don't want to level up, then don't.

i dont really like that theyre gone, but also im not really missing them. perks make up for it and sometimes even replace them 1:1.

A skill level costs nothing much. Except some particular perks, the benefits from said perk only applies to someone directly using the skill itself anyway. It's just a matter of time until you got high enough in the skill to take the perk.

If you don't level up you might get the problem, that you get another level in the meantime. And when you choose to level up, you must take all your level ups, that is the problem!

@topic

The only ones I really miss are Luck and Speed!

Here's to hoping they don't remove SPECIAL for Fallout 4!

I'm so glad they fixed the previous broken, redundant system. Thanks Bethesda :tes: