Some method of defining your in game persona is required. In the case of TES games it's stats. In Skyrim we have fewer stats. That makes the game easier. It also makes the game less versatile. Whether this is good or bad is subjective. Pretty straight forward.

perks were in oblivion, you just automatically got them instead of getting to pick them.

and perks have nothing to do with attributes, they have always been skill based.

I also miss attributes. I think they do more to define your character then perks because attributes are universal, perks are centralized. ie strength can affect all melee types.

I also think the leveling system needs an overall. I don't want to increase my level just because I wanted to read a book and OOPS the book increased my lock picking skill which I did not want to do.

We should go back to the good old days where each kill or enemy hits gave you experience/knowledge points. Then you are free to spend those points on whatever skills you want. If this system was in place, we would also be able to raise a point in the real attributes that not only contribute to the 3 tank bars, but also allow you to be stronger/faster/more magically inclined etc..

With the traditional system, at least I don't have to worry about my speech skill going up just because I decided to sell some loot.

Except for the part where every aspect of what the old attribute stats affected has a part in the new game but are derived from different things you're absolutely correct.

And by absolutely correct I mean...not in the least bit correct at all.

The impression I get is that people that miss attributes and/or are claiming the game was dumbed down due to their absence are like people who use cinnamon sticks or the like when quitting smoking. They don't help someone quit smoking directly, they're just used because the comfort of holding the object is like when they help cigarettes. Likewise people want the comfort of seeing bright shiny attributes on their screen when functionally that they are called attributes and have numbers is functionally MEANINGLESS by itself.

You could label each one "Fluffy White Kittens" on the character sheet and put numbers next to them and as long as the game function derived from them functioned the same it doesn't matter.

In Skyrim the various things attributes affected were shunted into other areas.

Yes they helped define your characteristics, I agree. You can only hope for TES 6 and have lots of patience (or go back to MW / OB).

Yes, I miss them, and every thing they covered that isn't represented in Skyrim.

But you shouldn't be able to see the numbers in a medium like a video game.

Every other mechanic is hidden behind a GUI, so should statistics be.

Would be great if the modders somehow managed to bring the Attribute system back. Hopefully not exactly the same as the previous game, but with some major overhauls.

If they could create an attribute system that didn't detract from the gameplay, then it would likely get more support.

Er, what? If every stat and variable was hidden in a an RPG, and it was supposed to be as in depth as an ES should be, the first thing people would want back would be the shown stats. Nobody would even know what they were doing. Who are these people that couldn't understand 1-100 scaled variables in the first place? Who were these simpletons that thought 1-100 was "spreadsheet excel", or an "advanced calculus test"? Should those people even be allowed outside?

don't miss em and good riddance.
nah j/k
but honestly I don't miss them weather stats or this system I wouldn't say there is that much of a difference.

I didn't read everything but saw lots of "dumbed down" but if you think about it is it really that different in the end? To be honest I hated the stat system in oblivion in how you had to get enough skill usage for an attribute to make sure it was maxed at a given level up.

you didnt "have" to play that way. if you played like a normal person and accepted what you got from playing the game(not standing around grinding certain skills for the perfect level up) it made much more interesting characters than anything you can make in skyrim.

they were removed because the leveling system that was used in the last 2 games was absolutely stupid and you had to plan out what to level to get a good character

You didnt have to do any planning in Morrowind. And never really had to in Oblivion either. I never once min/maxed or cared about multipliers, and I made hundreds of builds in both games with no problems. Oblivion was more fickle, but Morrowind didnt have any of the problem,s that Oblivion did.

You mean where you had to put all the skills you used the most into minor and the ones that you used the least into the major skills to get the full +5? Yeah that was really stupid.

What I don't like is how it's virtually impossible to work out what stats your character has. Considering they wanted to make it less "spreadsheety", it looks like we'lll have to make a physical spreadsheet just to keep track of it all.


When it was numbers in a table, and specific skill stat raises in enchantments, it was easy to know what your character could do.


Now, all your attribute bonuses are in that stupid constellation tree, and more often than not, they're gimmicky things, rather than concrete increases in ability.

Oblivion had a great system for enchantments, it told you what skill was raised and by how much. Now we just have the nebulous and gamey "10% better prices" and such.

I also dislike how the removal of attributes have essentially made races and characters of the same class grow exactly the same each time. When there were attribute differences, an Imperial warrior might be faster than an Orc warrior, or a Nord a heavier hitter.

Now, you start at 100 in every stat, every time, and your skills quickly level to the same point regardless of small race bonuses.


I get the feeling the devs couldn't work out how to integrate attribute bonuses into the perk bonuses, so they just removed the one that morons struggle with.

Roll on January, eh? Then the modders will be able to finish making the game that Bethesda seem to have abandoned in Beta.

I never said I min/maxed just having that hovering over my head was annoying tho.

Pretty much.

what you said, is stupid. oh no please don't level me up by doing things that level me up.

seriously quit crying, you sold something, you got alittl more confident so your speech went up. if you want it to stay low DONT SELL ANYTHING you can make gold without selling a single thing in game and keep your lvl 25 speech all year long.
quit the " im a mage i should have 0 smithing" roleplay BS i mean seriously about 200 people in the universe care that reading a skillbook forces them to level.

anyways as for OP
attributes were lame in oblivion they did nothing except let me carry more with strength and run faster, and since max run in oblivion was like sprinting in skyrim that part is null/void. if they want to do attributes and stuff it should be a huge choice, TES never had that feeling with leveling, the perk system now being the biggest "omg what to pick now" feeling.

Well, instead of Health, Magicka and Stamina...

Think it's like that:
Strength, Intelligence and Endurance.

So, it seems like the majority of people's reasoning for not wanting attributes is because of the way they were added whenever you leveled up, you know, the multipliers.


guess what? I hated them too (OP here). They were horrid. That's why I had mods to fix them, well, more accurately, do away with them entirely. And Tamriel was good.

There is no reason to believe that bringing back attributes means that the multipliers will be making a return. In fact, if you had reading comprehension skills, and have taken the time to read some of my posts in this thread, you would see that there are other alternatives.

So stop using the multipliers as an argument against attributes. You sound wee-tod-id.

So that is the solution to a dodgy leveling & stats system-completely ignore it?

Ok, i will just play my entire game without leveling at all. Ever. :rolleyes:

....what? no....

Strength goverened carry weight AND melee damage. (and can be useful for dialogue checks. see below)

Intelligence, yes, that one is pretty much the same as magicka. BUT. If you have played fallout, they had a nice little system where there were intelligence checks in dialogue options. If you had a certain amount of intelligence, you could talk your way through certain scenerios. This could easily be implemented in Skyrim.

Endurance governed hitpoints AND fatigue (stamina). I propose that it should govern more in Skyrim, maybe the amount of stamina that sprint consumes per second. Or maybe physical damage resistance.

Plus, there were many more that goverened other things. Some of which are no longer in the game.

Which brings another problem. A simple solution to these issues is to ignore them? There is the issue about choice again. In a game where it claimed you could be any character, do anything you want and which way you want to-you can't, not if you eventually want to finish the game. I don't want to level because i am simply selling my loot or picking locks-which may i add, why the hell isn't there a spell for it again. So, don't sell loot? THAT is a key aspect of an ES game and part of the fun. I am suppose to give up fun side aspects because the stats system got messed up? Before i had choice, now the options are limited.

Mm hmm, this is so true. I liked watching my characters grow on a stat sheet, it's something i really took for granted. Attributes are not as visual as the perk system, but for those of us who grew up with attributes, it definately feels like something is missing now that they're gone.

I hope this isn't the future of RPGs.