Went through pretty much the entire thread. I don't have a way to "fix it" but I will add my gripe in.

Bethesda might as well start making the Fable games. Overhyped, generic, dumbed-down, console port to PC.

I'm protesting silently with my voice and quitting Skyrim after a second playthrough. I didn't want to have to rely on modders' but with this new TES they really gave PC gamers very little choices. DLC's will not save the game either. They're more like carrots on a stick.

I'm just glad it certainly isn't only me that can see through the smoke and mirrors. Not just its potential but what it has been reduced to. There are SO many things missing that have been scrapped entirely. WTF is Bethesda doing? Hanging themselves by catering to consoles.

I could go on forever about specifics but why bother? Let Bethesda have it their way. Modders go on strike and see how long this game lasts for PC gamers.

Sure there can be ways to handle attributes without attributes, but it isn't handled so attributes would have been a solid add to the game.

To answer what they handle that currently isn't it is general competence and filling in the holes where skills don't fall. So the general idea of hitting harder and not hitting harder just with one handed is handled by a strength attribute. And it could be used for behind the scenes tests for dialogue options, ability to kick in doors, move rubble blocking a path, ability to jump over a chasm, get out of room before ti is sealed by a trap etc. Now if they had a general perk tree maybe with its own pool of perks that could handle it as well, a brawny perk which increased weight allowance and improved melee damage by 10% would work as an attribute replacement, quick wit might open some extra dialogue options and improve the effectiveness of spells by 5%. The only value attributes would have over things like this is a finer breakdown as the attribute was over a scale of 100 and not a few perks that might stack.

Stats are more for pen and paper RPG's anyway. I like that Bethesda is trying to figure out a new way to make an RPG game. The thing I think is important about RPGs are all shown in this game. You play as a character. Your character gains levels and experience, you upgrade your equipment, you gain more powers and abilities, you interact with other NPcs in a multitude of ways...it has it all.

And it's all disappointingly lacking...

Except for the part where everything derived from attributes is you know....still in the game. The only thing dumbed down I see is people who got so used to what governs those derived capabilities being attributes that they apparently can't see anything but attributes even within a system that made them redundant graphics models. I'll repeat what i said a million times for hyperbole's sake.

The game could have something called Big Fluffy Kittens that governed aspects of your characters and all that would still matter is the increase/decreased game values attached to Big Fluffy Kittens.

Attributes not being in Skyrim is functionally meaningless.

Bullsh!t. Speed, willpower, and luck. Where are they?

I find removing the attribute system to be extremely liberating. As a simple example, I can now build a character than can be competent in both large weapons and ranged weapons. In no other RPG in my recollection has this been possible because large weapons are always strength governed and ranged weapons are always dexterity or agility governed. You have to choose one or the other. I'm so tired of RPG mechanics that inhibit me creating the character I want to. That's my two sense.

Actually, they could have just fixed it like I suggested earlier so that strength helped bow damage, albeit slightly less than it would for melee (along with increasing your maximum carry weight). And agility could effect bow damage and melee attack speed. Combine these two, and you'd have good bonuses for a melee/archer hybrid. Of course, if you wanted to be a pure archer, you'd probably want less strength. Unless you wanted to carry around a lot of equipment, then you could sacrifice some agility for strength and not be penalized all that much. I personally wouldn't, as I would rather maximize damage over carry weight, but if you want to, it's an option that won't ruin your character.

Who says we have to bring back attributes exactly how they were in the past games? I want them back, but I want them improved on.

Besides your failure to recognize stats which are missing (as other posters are pointing out), you also miss the fact that video games are art and how these functions are presented to the player effects the overall experience. I'm also seeing a distinct lack of attribute draining substitutes. Is there even a poison which decreases the One-handed/Two-handed/Archery damage values? You've also glossed over previous arguments which presented the major difference between attributes and skill-associated perks: that of the general ability vs. particular ability.

If you won't listen to your opponents then everybody will end up talking over each others' heads.

Luck didn't exactly DO anything.It influenced events for you is simply now what you do. Luck was useless even when there WERE attributes. Speed changes depending on armour worn, weapon used, stone used, perk choice and bursts of speed with stamina use which will vary based on some of the above factors and things like stamina total, potions,enchants,etc. Magic regeneration rates are derived from a few factors.

Would you like to try again?

1. People are ignoring that now many affects governed by Attributes in combination with other factors is still in the game and dictated by other factors.
2. A number of arguments are built on the false premise that the only way to govern certain things in game is through attributes, see also your attribute draining substitutes comment.

I think the moral of the story is Bethesda is horrible at designing leveling systems. Luckily smarter people made mods to fix this.

So where are speed and agility? If two characters are both wearing ordinary clothes, what makes one faster and more agile than the other? And where's strength? If I spend all my time focusing on the two-handed skill, what happens if at some point I find myself having to use a one-handed weapon? And what if I want a character who's physically very weak and unable to carry much weight, but can run for long distances? How is that possible in the current system?

Without attributes, it no longer feels like i'm making a unique character. Instead, i'm just alternating between health and stamina each time I level up, then working my way through perk trees. And skill progression seems mostly there to present the player with milestones for unlocking new perks.

If it ain't broke don't fix it.

So where are speed and agility? See above for that and the other questions. Also skills do more than "present the player with milestones for unlocking new perks." I blame this partially on pre release fear monger that things like raising your One Handed or Two Handed skill did not affect your damage with appropriate weapons and other worries debunked after release.

Uhh, actually, it played a roll in a lot of things. Not an overly powerful role, but it affected a lot of things in a small way. And not just events. It effected skill buffs and other things.




You're getting it confused with temporary speed change versus a permanent, passive overall maximum speed of your character, regardless of what you are wearing or doing or what spell/potion you have in effect.

It's nowhere to be found in skyrim. Don't lie to me, boy.



Can you elaborate more on this?

And nothing necessitates such effects must be derived from an attribute. Also the relative vagueness of that reply speaks to the relatives uselessness of Luck.



A character heavily invested in using Heavy Armor can certainly take off that armor and use something else, good luck with that. Speed variation by gear and other factors still exist in the game and nothing necessitates that speed factors being derived from attributes.



Seriously? Play the game. Armor type worn, Perk choices in this case Resto perks, and enchants. Personally I'd be less worried about the lack of seeing the word "Willpower" on your character page and more worried about how mana regeneration is a useless bonus.

Personally I'm far more worried about the problems like the current disparity in Skill usefulness, the large number of bad Perks and the problems with magic.

Now you're just strawmanning. Where has it been said that attributes are the ONLY way to govern certain things? Suggestions have been presented in this thread for general perks to replace attributes, although personally I find usage of attributes more elegant. What's your point about the attribute draining comment? Your meaning here is rather obtuse. If you're reading that to mean that such an effect could only be done through a Strength attribute then you're going out of your way to misinterpret your opposition. I'm getting at the fact that the split away from attributes hasn't led to the gap left behind being filled by an equivalent, possibly because creating a separate effect for each of those is too clunky? I'm not sure on the developer reasoning there.

Neither have your counter arguments been particularly convincing. You present sprinting/light armor/heavy armor as the alternatives for speed yet functionally these are different than the speed attribute. Speed as an attribute is an aspect of the character's natural abilities and is the difference between two people wearing the same armor type. Some people think that sort of distinction was important to keep, you obviously don't.

Armour doesn't make my character faster. All it does is makes another character wearing heavier armour slower... and even that is only temporary as there's a perk that makes armour weightless.

And i'm aware that skill progression does still have an impact. It still feels as though everything is very weighted on perks though. They should be there to compliment attributes and skills, not to define my character entirely. They're just not adequate enough for that.

Not straw manning at all. That lack of attributes has dumbed the system down has been presented multiple times while ignoring that the factors that attributes governed are very much still in the game. For that matter the number and magnitude of affects ranging from disease, poisons, spells,etc that drain character functions isn't predicated on the existence of attributes. It's a completely separate request than wanting attributes back.



I can't imagine why a game engine built without the Speed attribute would have different speed adjustments and functionality compared to one that does. Boy that's strange.

I really like the game, but it does feel like something is... missing. Attributes is one of several things I miss from earlier games, I do think the leveling system is better overall though.

Thats kinda limp argument as since you have obviously trained as a 2 handed fighter why would switching to single hand make you good at it just because your strong?

as for speed I don't know why anyone wants that stat, you either make it so its so limited that its not worth upgrading or its like oblivion where at max its stupid fast.

Unless, as I myself am arguing, attributes could represent such effects more elegantly and from the user perspective would have a degree of logic to them compared to Skyrim's current form of representation. The value of verisimilitude and all that.



I'm having trouble making sense of this. It doesn't seem to address my comment at all. Why would the Speed attribute be part of the game engine anyhow?

An argument I have absolutely no problem with. It's an argument built on preference and certainly nothing wrong with that.

i dont know what it is for you but for me, its 2 things. first is the preparing stage. back in oblivion, i had to really work out what i wanted my character to be and how id level it. the other stage is simply the effort in leveling. i dont fee like i really work for my perks this time around. i have 100 in multiple trees and it means very little to me. i dont get the same excitement leveling conjuring to 100 when i know that i could just as easily soul tap a dead body for a few hours and get the exact same result.

i miss the old stats system...