I miss attributes : V - Skyrim

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:22 pm

I think they should leave in the three base attributes like they have it (Magicka - Health - Stamina), but they should also add in Athletics and Agility, Stength, and Intelligence. Because the number of attributes are more than doubled from the default settings, you would get to add 10 points to TWO attributes at level-up, instead of just one.

Magicka would ONLY govern how much magicka you have to spend.
Health would only govern how much HP you have.
Stamina would stay the same, except it would have no effect on how high your carrying-capacity is.

Athletics would effect how fast you move and how fast your attacks are, but it would also effect how high you can jump.

Agility would effect how quickly you change direction (side to side), and would also effect your ability to block/dodge (the higher your agility, the quicker you can raise your shield/sword to block, and the quicker you can dodge). Think of it as "reflexes" instead of agility if you must.

Strength would effect your carrying capacity, and it would also effect how much of an effect heavy armor has on your movement speed.

Intelligence would effect what level magical spells you can cast, and what level of weapon-attack techniques you would be able to perform. (As far as I know, there are no "weapon-attack techniques to learn in Skyrim, so Bethesda would have to add these. They could range from more/better killing-animations, to more effective/powerful melee attacks).

You know, I like this idea a lot. It seems to have a good balance.

The only flaw I notice (there may be more, I'm pretty tired right now

) is concerning Agility, where you suggest that it affect your ability to change direction. When you say this, do you mean your "look around" speed? Because that is already customizable with the mouse/controller (PC/console) sensitivity. You would have to remove that feature, which would be blasphemy! xD

but maybe not. I guess I'm just used to having my sensitivity rather high. And for some reason, on Skyrim, I have to turn the sensitivity ALL the way up, or else my mouse moves at a snails pace. I'm not sure why it's like this.

Or another idea would be to set all of these attributes I added (Athletics, Agility, Strength, and Intelligence) as skills instead of attributes. They could be in their own category (not Thief/Mage/Warrior), and they would all have perks that relate to my above suggestions. This might actually be a better route to go!

Eh, I'm not so sure that would be a good idea. Unless there were some tweaks done to the amount of skills required to level up, where you need more to level up, considering that these "skills" would be used quiet frequently it seems.

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:10 pm

I'd like a return of attributes to replace boring perks. e.g. +20% damage with weapon X.

Strength could boost damage, or special poisons/spells could decrease Strength and reduce damage, instead of having separate +One-Handed, +Two-Handed, +Archery effects. I can't quite explain it, but the difference between the label also effects the way these are experienced. I can see a disease which causes weakness, I can see a pair of gauntlets which improves the wearer's physical might, but I cannot get a feel for gauntlets which add +X damage when using one hand (but are 0% effective instead of twice as much when used with two hands).

Yeah, that makes sense. The way they have it set up currently is not logical.

This is why we need attributes. To restore logic!

I'm not sure if removing the damage perks would be essential, as I think it might be better to just gimp them (while still maintaining the passive bonus from attributes).

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:50 pm

I would loved to have seen a perk that taken at various lvls lowers the stamina cost for sprinting. Its not really something that makes a character faster than most rather more adapt to sprinting thus being able to run faster for longer thus outrunning easily less hardy runners.

This would be cool, I guess.

But that still doesn't change maximum speed. Have you ever seen a physically unfit person move? You know, the fat asses. They move slowly. Even when they run (or try to), they run slowly. They walk slowly. Everything is slower than someone who is more fit than them. Even thought processes are slowed down (who would have guessed that the mind is connected to the body??).

The same should be implemented in Skyrim. Although, to be more realistic, endurance would govern how long you can sprint (so, either maximum stamina, or less stamina consumption. I personally like the sound of less stamina consumption), and speed would simply govern your maximum moving speed. Sounds fair to me.

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:39 pm

Somebody doesn't check the loading screens When you level up you see Health, Magicka and Stamina, Stamina is actually Stamina and +5 Maximum Carry Weight.

And somebody doesn't read posts before they quote them. I'm aware that Stamina affects encumbrance. The entire point of my post was that I dislike that.

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:13 am

I haven't missed the attributes at all. Half of their effects were redundant with each other anyway.

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:53 am

I don't miss acrobatics at all. BRB, float jumping.

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:05 pm

I honestly haven't noticed their absence.

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:52 am

I can't say I do. TES wasn't exactly a "proper" RPG where stats really did define your character - because everyone could do everything no matter what you started with. I much prefer the current leveling and perk system to the previous +5/+5/+5 mess.

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:56 am

I don't miss acrobatics at all. BRB, float jumping.

That's cool. But I think we're talking about attributes in this thread. Thanks for bumping the thread, though!

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:48 am

Does one go to the gym and say, "Oh my strength is 25, I'm going to raise it to 27 today?"

Ever tried to put on muscle mass?

It can be very much like grinding a skill to see a number raise.

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:09 am

TES wasn't exactly a "proper" RPG where stats really did define your character - because everyone could do everything no matter what you started with.

Except attributes separated each character because they defined how well you could do certain things. Try making a pure warrior and spending all of your attributes into intelligence, willpower, and agility. yeah. You'll have a pretty sh!tty warrior.

I much prefer the current leveling and perk system to the previous +5/+5/+5 mess.

If you had read my OP, and read the rest of my posts, you would know that I enjoy the leveling and perk system, and hated the stat multipliers. And there's also a mod that fixes the stat multiplier in oblivion, that I couldn't play the game without. It removed it entirely and replaced it with a much better system.

My concern lies in the complete lack of attributes and the god-awful trio of blandness we call "increase your hp, mp or stamina with each level-up".

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:01 am

Ever tried to put on muscle mass?

It can be very much like grinding a skill to see a number raise.

Yes, this is because the universe is just a very, very, VERY complex mathematical equation. But, ah, that is best saved for a seperate thread entirely.

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:18 am

I miss only two stats: Luck, and Fame/Infamy

Now only imperials get special treatment. And i hate playing as an imperial.

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:05 pm

Except attributes separated each character because they defined how well you could do certain things. Try making a pure warrior and spending all of your attributes into intelligence, willpower, and agility. yeah. You'll have a pretty sh!tty warrior.

If you had read my OP, and read the rest of my posts, you would know that I enjoy the leveling and perk system, and hated the stat multipliers. And there's also a mod that fixes the stat multiplier in oblivion, that I couldn't play the game without. It removed it entirely and replaced it with a much better system.

My concern lies in the complete lack of attributes and the god-awful trio of blandness we call "increase your hp, mp or stamina with each level-up".

Read your OP again. Ok, I agree attributes could have been implemented in a better manner than Oblivion, but I still don't see Skyrim's implementation as gamebreaking. Personally, I am able to pick up Skyrim and play, but that wasn't the case in Oblivion. Unfortunately, I think it's up to complete TES newbs to be able to answer the question.

(I still think TES V improves on everything but Quests from TES IV).

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:16 am

I miss them too, but Im happy they got rid of speed. Characters could move so fast, like cheetah!

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:30 am

I dont, i been thinking like this for the past 3 years... stats makes no sense in real world, stats bring to much limits and nonsense and what matters is what you can actually do as SKILLS, also kinda annoyed by "Leveling up" since all it does is spam a character with more health (so not real) i think it should just be errased too... but i am fine as it is.

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:09 am

(I still think TES V improves on everything but Quests from TES IV).

....even the complete lack of spells in Skyrim (the ones that were in the previous games)? You think that's an improvement?

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:22 am

Except attributes separated each character because they defined how well you could do certain things. Try making a pure warrior and spending all of your attributes into intelligence, willpower, and agility. yeah. You'll have a pretty sh!tty warrior.

Except the huge difference here is that a traditional stat-based RPG has defined limits. TES does not. If you have high Strength and low Intelligence at the start, you're never going to be much of a mage without the very best of luck. In TES, the ten-or-so point differential between chosen stats and non-chosen stats is a minor hurdle at best.

It might define you at the start (a very, very tiny bit) but most characters are going to wind up the same way anyway. The game basically encourages branching out - a character starts at least "competent" in every skill. How many stat-based RPGs do anything like this? A character will always need some method of lockpicking - meaning they were going to use security or Alteration at some point. Is it possible to go through the game without any method of lockpicking? Yes, but you're going to miss a lot. Even a warrior or thief will likely use magic at some point.

What really mattered were the HP, Magicka, and Stamina levels.

The only way Attributes were worth keeping is if the entire leveling system was drastically overhauled, and I'm talking something that would make Skyrim's changes look tiny. It's something that never felt quite right, and not just because of the +5 nonsense. I'm all for more complexity, but this board is under the impression throwing lots of numbers around makes a game more complex. That isn't the case.

There are plenty of things I'd take over attributes back - for starters how about a 'general' perk category with things that don't fit anywhere else? And give me my damn faction rep screen, with the titles and icons!

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:18 pm

I literally forgot all about their existence until I read this thread.

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:19 pm

This would be cool, I guess.

But that still doesn't change maximum speed. Have you ever seen a physically unfit person move? You know, the fat asses. They move slowly. Even when they run (or try to), they run slowly. They walk slowly. Everything is slower than someone who is more fit than them. Even thought processes are slowed down (who would have guessed that the mind is connected to the body??).

The same should be implemented in Skyrim. Although, to be more realistic, endurance would govern how long you can sprint (so, either maximum stamina, or less stamina consumption. I personally like the sound of less stamina consumption), and speed would simply govern your maximum moving speed. Sounds fair to me.

Actually I have an overweight cousin and he can run very fast lol. However for speed that could have been done as a perk as well in fact what I surprised about is that they do not have generic class perks that tie in with character lvl. Thus higher your level is the more access to such generic class optional perks. Could have things such as modifiers to carried weight given from stamina, lower stamina needs for sprinting, increased running/walking speed, better footing so you take less damage from falls without having to wear armor. Not sure where those would fit between warrior and theif, but for mages perks that maybe increase the potency of destruction spells or others. Maybe a semi on the field "spell crafting/mixing" perks that allow you to combine spells together for more powerful or strange effects like setting someone on fire for some damage also causing them to go into a blind rage attacking everyone around them doing extra fire damage or a fire and frost mix that creates a steam jet that not only damages the target, but puts up a misty smoke screen allowing you to sneak into the shadows unseen.

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:03 am

Except the huge difference here is that a traditional stat-based RPG has defined limits. TES does not. If you have high Strength and low Intelligence at the start, you're never going to be much of a mage without the very best of luck. In TES, the ten-or-so point differential between chosen stats and non-chosen stats is a minor hurdle at best.

Yeah? Well then we could just change it! Hell, they did it in Fallout, and then scrapped the idea entirely in Skyrim. I like having a smaller cap on attributes. something like 20 or so as the max sounds good. Of course, that's just a rough number. It would have to be fine tuned to balance gameplay and what not.

A character will always need some method of lockpicking - meaning they were going to use security or Alteration at some point. Is it possible to go through the game without any method of lockpicking? Yes, but you're going to miss a lot. Even a warrior or thief will likely use magic at some point.

You know what's funny? They removed open lock spells, and never added lock bashing (for the brute warrior types). Now the only option for opening locks is actually picking the lock. So disappointing.

What really mattered were the HP, Magicka, and Stamina levels.

Don't forget speed. Speed was essential for ranged characters.

The only way Attributes were worth keeping is if the entire leveling system was drastically overhauled

Which I would love to see happen.

There are plenty of things I'd take over attributes back - for starters how about a 'general' perk category with things that don't fit anywhere else? And give me my damn faction rep screen, with the titles and icons!

I like both of those things, a lot. But we don't have to choose attributes over those things. We can have both, you know.

I'm tired of making "sacrifices" in the game development of TES. It's like, we gain a lot of good things with each new addition to the series, but we lose a lot of good things too. It's turning into a huge let down every single time.

I'm just glad that modders are going to pick up where bethesda gave up.

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:03 am

I honestly haven't noticed their absence.

perception would of been nice, it seems we all have the same perception, when enemy markers show up, but thats ok, the game lets you pick 50 perks and plus you have those stones, and the racial traits so its pretty well covered except for strength, luck and perception, but its a bit more streamlined and i think the system they used works good.

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:08 pm

Actually I have an overweight cousin and he can run very fast lol.

I bet if he lost weight and [censored], he would be even faster!

My point was that every character should not move at the same speed (unless you build identical characters, of course

). it doesn't make any sense.

However for speed that could have been done as a perk as well in fact what I surprised about is that they do not have generic class perks that tie in with character lvl.

Yeah, it could have, and I would like to see a general skill tree added. But still, attributes are a must for me. They don't have to be over-powered. Just something more rewarding and complex than the three options we currently have upon leveling up.

I mean, think about it. How do you increase your strength in real life? You work out at a gym, lifting weights and [censored]. Instead of lifting logs and stones in Skyrim, we could just either have it become a passive bonus when using melee weapons or carrying armour, or have it so that you can choose to level up 1 point in the attribute of your choice upon leveling up (or something similar).

Strength is not really a skill. But it affects skills that you already possess, mainly moving and carrying things, and hitting things harder (which makes sense why strength governed carrying capacity and melee damage). Not very complex skills, but skills none-the less. Strength is more of an attribute than it is a skill. And it effects multiple things. So, in-game, if you increase your strength, you become better at using ALL melee weapons (not all that much of a bonus, now that Bethesda lumped the melee skills together, dumbing the game down further.), as well as unarmed melee combat.

It just doesn't make sense not to include it along with the perks.

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:37 pm

I'm not missing attributes in the least bit.

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:57 am

I prefer the Skyrim system. One of the problems I had in previous TES games was always that I inevitably ended up worrying about the stats and multipliers, and it frequently affected how I played the game. I play Skyrim a lot more "naturally" and don't feel that I have to be careful what I do to build my character the way I want.