honestly can't say I do. I've not noticed their absence yet. That's mostly because they didn't exactly do anything of significance which skyrims system doesn't also do.

"Worse" is subjective.

I think the new system is superior in every way to the Morrowind / Oblivion way of Attributes.

Perks add tons more depth, choice, customization, and "be who you want to be" than Attributes could ever dream of doing.

Not by a long shot. There is no way to get faster or survive long falls. There is no way to jump super high. I haven't found a way to increase magicka recovery speed naturally like raising your willpower did. I could go on but I've already proven your points lack of credibility.

I wish there was at least an athletics skill with perk tree that handled all the lost speed/jump/fall perks and increased hand to hand damage and gave some stamina perks like faster stamina regen, etc.

I also think they could have removed some perks and made the base skill cover like the 5 levels of damage like one handed's first tier perk has 5 spots. Then raising your skill would have some benefits.

Most of all the good thing about attributes was you could sort of mini-level a bunch of things at once where in Skyrim you get one perk per level.

By "ability to change direction" I meant the speed at which you can move from side to side (such as you would to avoid archers).

To elaborate on my "skills" idea, I made a new thread. I encourage you all to check it out, but ONLY if you are interested in a long-read

I can understand where you are coming from. I do not miss the attributes much aside from speed though if they did re add attributes I would only want three and have attribute perks focusing on strength perks, agility perks, and intelligence perks to add things like running speed, natural magic regeneration, natural health regeneration and the like though these could simply just be added as perks for the three present attributes like speed in stamina same with falling damage, natural magic regen in magika, and so forth.

I don't miss attributes. The "depth" of attributes was caught up in the mechanical contribution to your capabilities.

I miss 'em too, OP. All of the justifications for their removal are based either on the failings of Bethesda's previous attribute systems -- which were broken as a result of Bethesda's implementation, not because of any inherent redundancy of attributes as a concept -- or on the fact that this is a video game where you press buttons to do stuff. The same logic could be applied to justify the removal of any and all RPG elements from the series.

As the increasingly ignorant and naive-sounding [untrustworthy Khajiit] says, it doesn't matter how strong or fast a character is - only what one can do. So why not remove skills, health, magicka and fatigue - and define what the button presses do using in-world logic rather than numerical values? (Eg, Khajiit can sneak this well, Nords can swing swords this well...)

Don't expect many people to agree, though (or to be able to respond to a post like this), when (1) a dumb feature has been popularised as superior or (2) you're in the general discussion area.

TL;DR: Agree with OP. Mod mod mod.

I'm sure there will be a mod adding the attributes back in.

I love the speed attribute, along with the athletics stat. Running faster than a horse was always enjoyable for me.

/signed

I miss atties.

I don't care if the new system is 'just a boiling down to necessity'

Tinkering and tweaking is non-existent as is. Game is fantastic regardless however.

I especially miss speed and acrobatics.

I miss jumping from high places and not dying... oh wait we have a shout for that... OMG Skyrim has gone the way of the smart phone!... no wait all TES titles have long before smart phones existed with "we have a mod for that" anyway removing the ability to jump higher does bug me slightly, but not too much. Running faster without sprinting would be nice. Looking through things there are speed modifiers in tthe game they just apply to circumstance and more so focuses on preventing the loss of speed like the one for bows which make kiting far easier and viable.

Or, how about, perks give me way more customization, control, and choice in how my character develops than Attributes could ever dream of doing?

You know, I still haven't got an answer what there is that can only be done with attributes...


Especially if you compare it to those mods for Morrowind and Oblivion that changes the way you gain attributes.
So you use weapons a lot to raise strenght, to raise damage... just like in skyrim by raising the weapon skill.
You use bows a lot to raise agility, to raise bow damage... just like in skyrim just by raising the archery skill.
You use magic a lot to raise intelligence, to have more magica... like in skyrim by raising magic skill, so magic costs less.

It's the same thing, attributes had no extra inherited "depth" or whatever, they did not even gave you more choice or more varied characters, a good warrior was always strong, a good wizard was always intelligent...

I dont think it was because of lazyness. IMO i think they've dumbed it down to appeal to the casual gamer, you know, the type that will play it for a month or two, not bother with DLC and move onto another game to never play Skyrim again, so yeah they seem to have tried to please the casual gamer and not the hardcoe fans who have been loyal.

theres so much missing from the game, less weapons, less armour, less spells and less character stat customisation. Even the map is smaller (they may say its the same size but it isnt, because of the moutains theres a lot of areas that u just cant go to, unlike Oblivion, also the terrain gets old quickly cause you take the usual paths to cities and are channeled through mountain paths. on Oblivion even if you were going to and fro from the same cities, you could just head slightly more north or south for different scenery.)

Im also trying to figure out what has actually improve, the graphics yeah but thats to be expected. the combat? not really. it feels the same as Oblivion but with a few things (like chopping wood) tacked on.

And while im moaning (lol) ill mention the lack of horse combat. People wanted it in Oblivion and it still isnt in this game 5 years later. it just seems silly to have to get off your horse to fight someone.

Im still enjoying the game but i really do think theyve dumbed ti down so much, and that doesnt bode well for future TES games

Count me in as pro-attribute. Count me out for the weak Morrowind/Oblivion system.

Skyrim's system is personally unrewarding. Through comparison, I can illustrate why:

1. Skyrim perks are boring. None of them has the flair and style of Fallout 3's perks. Which means there's no incentive to take a perk because "it's funny", or "I can do funny things with this". It's all "make my character more broken". Except lockpicking, where it's a waste of perks for most people who post here, and a godsend for those without a light touch.

2. The stats become largely meaningless. I can already cast all of the expert spells I have access to, without the cost reduction perk. Why do I need 10 more magicka? Another 10 stamina isn't going to give me that one extra shield bash I need to win a fight, because it would've already been used. 10 more health? If I'm in danger of dying, that's buying me 1 frame of life at most. Because the only things that really hurt me are big and scary, and could be better countered by working on enchantment than by gaining health. No return on investment. Contrast that with Dragon Age, where a 4% gain in stats has not only a tangible effect, but opens up new ways to specialize my character. Return on investment.

3. There's just too many levels. Approximately equal time invested: Skyrim/The Witcher. Even the abilities I get are at least comparable in nature. Skyrim levels me > 3x as fast, while The Witcher offers 3 character upgrades per level (a mix of gold, silver, or bronze tier abilities). The thing is, I level in The Witcher, I know I've earned my reward. (The tiering of abilities doesn't hurt either: you acquire "all the basics" early enough to figure out how you'd like to specialize). In Skyrim, I'm not in "skill exp" situations for MOST of my playtime, and I still feel as if I *just* gained a level, only to see that the next time I gain a skill, I'm going to level. I can understand that... at level 1. Not so much at 48. I'm long past the point where gaining a level feels special in Skyrim, and I'm wishing Bethesda had halved the rate of gaining levels and doubled the reward.

Now, what SHOULD they do if they do attributes again?

1. All Attributes should have fine-grained tangible results. 1 point of strength gives you n extra units of weight you can carry, affects your damage by m, and affects heavy weapon swing speed by z. Willpower should be the sole factor in magicka regeneration rate, and should provide magic resistance. Endurance should be worth n HP per level, m stamina, and z% poison and disease resist. Agility should directly affect jump height, sneak-related effects, etc. Intelligence should affect maximum magicka, but also your capacity to learn skill abilities.

2. Increasing any skill should also count toward the governing attribute. Strength skills raise strength, etc.

3. Each attribute should have non-skill actions. Say, strength <-> woodchopping, but endurance <-> mining. You could also gain attribute experience this way. Ideally, the system would require some of each kind of experience over the course of a few attribute levels.

4. attributes should be dynamic, not tied to character leveling. Enough said.

5. Using a maxed out skill should still offer some attribute exp, but at a reduced rate.

6. Attributes must also offer actual quest options: A strong character can topple a statue over a gap instead of finding the hidden release for the bridge overhead, while an agile character can climb/jump places that allow them to bypass the obstacle. Smart characters might be able to backtrace the mechanical components and get an idea where to look, etc. Very new characters... have to do everything the hard way.

7. Perks don't necessarily have to go away, but getting attribs back would require Bethesda make the perks less about manipulating the raw numbers, and make them more about refining the way you interact with the world. That is, don't make "bows do 20% more damage" anymore. Even if "Big Game Hunter" makes you do more damage against predatory wildlife, and only if you're using a bow, it should be about the fact that you're a hunter, not about the 20% more damage you do (or whatever the number is).

So perks are boring, stats are meaningless, but attributes are not.

Wait, what?

If you've ever used one of the GCD-style systems for Oblivion or Morrowind, you'd understand. Attribs just increased when it was time, and there was a very slight but tangible difference.

Skyrim doesn't have that same granularity of benefit. Well, it might for archetype drones, but I never made archetypes, and I never will.

I did used GCD, and basically the feeling is exactly the same as Skyrim

You use weapons a lot you will hit harder with weapons, exact same thing.


Heck, with GCD I tend to forget attributes exist...


Still not seeing the difference between the slight but tangible difference of attributes and the slight and tangible difference of skill increase or perk...

I disagree that attributes define a character. If you can just choose which attributes to increase rather than your abilities improving by which ones you use more, you lose some of the realism and some of the immersion. They decided "hey, Endurance was basically improving HP, let's make that seperate all the rest so that you can improve both your HP and your skills at the same time". Todd Howard roughly even said that in an interview, which can be viewed on YouTube. I, for one, think it is an improvement in the direction of keeping realism and immersion (and no, they are not the same thing).

All I can say is thank Talos they're gone.

Leveling is actually enjoyable now, instead of a chore.

No more "Oh [censored] I accidentally gained a point in [skill]!! Now I'm only going to have a +4 bonus!!"

Now it's "Oh nice, speech increased!!! Now I can spend a perk point!!"

Opinions, I guess.

I'm pleased as punch that attributes are gone, I've always thought they create a needless level of indirection. They allow a character who does the same armorer, sneak, marksman to advance in capability while doing the same armorer, sneak, marksman over and over again to increase another ability through a "related stat." Now, you get to a point once the basic boring perks are purchased, where to be a better armorer, sneak, marksman that you need to grow your lockpick skill or smithing instead. If you're lucky, there is a "fun" perk you can use to set yourself apart. That said, I think Bethesda needs to enhance the perk system. Not with more "armsman, 0/20/40/60/80, +20%/+40%/+60%/+80%" non-imaginative stats. These are attributes turned 90 degrees, to my thinking. They need things like "push button to zoom" and "can twirl a dagger and hamstring the enemy" and "can throw a dagger and have it split into nine" or whatever.

There are enough numbers already -- the skills cover that. It feels to me like the stats are for people that don't really want to commit to a flawed character If you blow your perks on marksman, then you are an archer. If you blow your stats on dexterity, you're an archer, or a rogue, or a light armor wearer, etc. I'd rather not have the stats.

Just IMO.

Well, first of all the absence of attributes leads to the fact that every character in Skyrim, no matter what armor he is wearing, will eventually travel at the same speed, which is, quite frankly, [censored].

Secondly, many effects that could be achieved by simply focussing on a certain main attribute, can now only be achieved by either armor entchantment or a specific perk in a specific tree. So in order to get more magic resistance (Willpower in the old system) in skyrim you basically need to train Alteration to at least lvl 30 and put at least 3 perks into that tree. No matter if it fits your character or not. This is nothing less than a restriction - gameplay wise.
The alternative would be to train enchantment and waste enchantment slots on your armor. The old system had more options for achieving said effect. Same goes for magica regeneration.

Charisma would allow you to not only influence people, in Skyrim there is no such thing as "influencing people" except for very few occasions when the game thinks it's appropriate. People would actually refuse talking to you under certain circumstances and you could actually haggle, which, again, in Skyrim is not possible anymore. Prices are set, depending on your speech skill (which btw increases passively as you buy/sell items).
Again, less options, more predetermined stuff.

Agility would be one factor that determines your chance to hit an enemy with bows. In Oblivion ans Skyrim every character, no matter what profession, is a perfect archer by default. Same goes for melee weapons and for spells. In Skyrim your magica is the only factor that decides wheter you can cast a spell or not. By that logic even a Skeever could summon a dremora lord if you gave him enough fortify magica potions.

Main attributes determined (along with skills) whether you could join a guild/ get promoted in a guild. In Skyrim it literally doesnt matter what profession you have, you can become the leader of every single guild.



That is only a small selection of what was taken away by taking away main attributes. I wonder how you can not see the obvious simplification that is the result of the new skill/perk system.

Of course it's a matter of taste and I'm sure many people are actually glad with the way the series has changed. There is, however, no point in arguing that the series has become less complex and thus, for many people, less enjoyable.

I really liked stats attributes GONE, too limited and i never could understand why all damn RPG′s must have them... its damn easier to just make more damage with the weapon and have better armor for Soak Damage, besides in most RPGs Dexterity all it do was crap the armor base (WTF?!)... it was a huge move and i hope most RPG′s Follow... you know Link been doing tons of EPIC adventures since the 80s and i still have to see damn [censored] Skills on him, its all about Brain and Actual skill, thats what matter not some [censored] stat that tells you how strong, how fast, how much damage you can soak... geesh.

Would had been nice to keep the Acrobatic skill tree and the Hand to Hand skill tree, i really want to see my char do something else that just punch... i dont know add few Kicks maybe at least couple random animations of the same attack, oh well you cant have everything... but wait till the Modders get KC.

I don't. Not at all.

Playing with a spreadsheet was far from fun for me and totally broke the immersion and at some extent the fun factor