Am I missing something? Azura is a PRINCE? : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 8:05 am

Azura is female, but called the deadric prince of dusk and dawn. I've noticed this through some dialog and in the loading screens. Why is it that she is called a prince? Is it just that all the deadric princes are princes, gender irrelevant? (Do deadra even have gender?) :s

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:37 pm

Prince is being used as a gender-neutral title in this situation, although certainly something like gender isn't an absolute concept when it comes to daedra.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:37 pm

The Daedric Princes appear to us in whatever form they please. Azura chose a woman-looking person. She's not actually female (nor male).

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:02 pm

The daedric princes aren't male or female. They can take on whatever gender and transform into whatever six they wish. I forget which, but one of them even changed from one game to another. Because they all have the same (lack of) six and gender, they all have the same title. That title is prince, because the devs apparently felt that male is default and calling a female a prince doesn't change her at all, but calling a male a princess degrades his character. Prince is the lore-correct term for Azura.

...It makes me wonder if there's a queen or king I'm not aware of.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:54 am

The daedric princes aren't male or female. They can take on whatever gender and transform into whatever six they wish. I forget which, but one of them even changed from one game to another. Because they all have the same (lack of) six and gender, they all have the same title. That title is prince, because the devs apparently felt that male is default and calling a female a prince doesn't change her at all, but calling a male a princess degrades his character. Prince is the lore-correct term for Azura.

...It makes me wonder if there's a queen or king I'm not aware of.

The king? Why that's Jyggalag of course. At least he will be, eventually.

On topic: Mehrunes Dagon could grow hooters if he wanted to. They aren't locked with a gender.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:16 pm

I like it when they were refer as Daedra Lords at one point. Oh, and Boethiah was once referred and look like a female in Daggerfall.

Beside, these Daedra Lords form themselves to however they please or do to get the most followers, like Azura being a woman to attract so many horny men under her wing.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:02 pm

Daedra were always 'princes' in MW and OB. In fact, I think there is a lore book that says as much.

I like it when they were refer as Daedra Lords at one point. Oh, and Boethiah was once referred and look like a female in Daggerfall.

Beside, these Daedra Lords form themselves to however they please or do to get the most followers, like Azura being a woman to attract so many horny men under her wing.

Regarding the prince of plots:

Spoiler

I believe Boethiah is a she once more.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 8:59 am

Well, if the Prince of Plots has an "h" at the end, it does refer to its female form.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:14 am

I believe Boethiah is a she once more.

Boethiah is either or both as it suits him/her, just like Mephala.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 9:14 am

...It makes me wonder if there's a queen or king I'm not aware of.

They're using prince to mean the ruler of a domain (as in Machiavelli's The Prince), not the heir to a land.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:23 pm

They're using prince to mean the ruler of a domain (as in Machiavelli's The Prince), not the heir to a land.

From Latin Princeps, metaphorically "First Citizen". The use of Prince as a junior rank for a King's son is solely British, IIRC.

OFF TOPIC: Boethiah is Greek, roughly "Help me!" and was screamed by the man who tried (and failed) to stick a dagger in Caesar's briast solo. His cry summoned the rest of his conspirators (Cassius and Brutus among them) and a debauched stabbing-party commenced. It's likely that this was intentional on Beth's part.

EVEN MORE OFF TOPIC: The full quote was Adelphe, Boethiah! (even more roughly "Help me, Bros!")

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:36 am

The full quote was Adelphe, Boethiah! (even more roughly "Help me, Bros!")

DON'T TAZE ME BRO!

Sorry, I'll be leaving now...

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:28 am

The Prince of Plots might have a prob, can't make up his/her/it's mind.

But then again The Prince of the unknown just dodges all question by not even picking a six.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:09 am

The Prince of plots appears in a form designed to allure the current hero. So the Imperial Agent was male, the Nerevarine and CoC were female, and I haven't met Boeth in Skyrim yet.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:41 pm

It's Boethiah in Skyrim, and is referred to as female.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:43 am

It's Boethiah in Skyrim, and is referred to as female.

Most of the time, I know the load screens refer to him...

The Prince of plots appears in a form designed to allure the current hero. So the Imperial Agent was male, the Nerevarine and CoC were female, and I haven't met Boeth in Skyrim yet.

I don't think that's how it works...

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:29 pm

"A well placed word...or a well placed dagger..."

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:11 am

Daedra are genderless, is the very simple sum up.

The 'Princes' appear in either, or both, sixes as they please, very few stick to one gender infact. Azura is one of the few who always appear as Female. (Can't be 100% 'she' has always been female, but seems a moot point given the context)

Molag Bal, to my knowledge, has always been a Male, for comparison.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:37 am

...It makes me wonder if there's a queen or king I'm not aware of.

The King/Queen would be Padomay (Oblivion itself, change) From Padomay formed the Daedra from Anu ( Stasis, Sithis, the void, Atherius) formed the Aedra.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:07 pm

Azura is female, but called the deadric prince of dusk and dawn. I've noticed this through some dialog and in the loading screens. Why is it that she is called a prince? Is it just that all the deadric princes are princes, gender irrelevant? (Do deadra even have gender?) :s

Yes. the Deadric princes exist in realms beyond gender distinctions.

It's like, metaphysical gender theory. OOoooh.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:09 pm

The King/Queen would be Padomay (Oblivion itself, change) From Padomay formed the Daedra from Anu ( Stasis, Sithis, the void, Atherius) formed the Aedra.

No, both are mixes of Anu and Padomay. The only difference is that some are more Padomayic, while other are more Anuic. Heck, we have two perfect examples of Padomay aedra and Anu daedra, Shor and Jyggylag, respectively.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 8:27 am

No, both are mixes of Anu and Padomay. The only difference is that some are more Padomayic, while other are more Anuic. Heck, we have two perfect examples of Padomay aedra and Anu daedra, Shor and Jyggylag, respectively.

Hmm yeah your correct on that. (Only begun to wrap my head around the more interesting parts of lore on the heavy stuff so I may be off with some preconceptions I have.)

Guessing their just called princes for some obscure reason.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:41 am

Think of Prince as a lord, rather than the son of the king. They lord over what they represent.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:36 pm

Yes. the Deadric princes exist in realms beyond gender distinctions.

It's like, metaphysical gender theory. OOoooh.

Does this mean that gender is an artefact of the post-covenent period, or at least, sometime after the deadra became the creatures we now know and love? If so, is all the symbolic dualism in the creation myth non-sixual, or was it retroactively mythopoes-ied by cultural attutudes derived from biological six, which is presumably Earth-Bone-related and comparatively young?

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:20 am

sixuality could be an echo or an homage to the first duality. It could also be completely unrelated to the mythos.