Normally I'm one to defend modders to the bitter end. While I don't disagree with the overall idea of an in-game system to check to make sure if the mod user has taken the time to read the ReadMe (RGO takes several steps to configure itself and makes internal checks whenever the mod is installed or updated) the fact that UV's implementation punishes the mod user is unacceptable in my view. Automatically killing the player-character is keeping the mod user from simply playing the game with a disabled UV and fixing the INI file at their leisure. It's limiting user playability, plain and simple.

Exactly, Reneer.
A simple reminder "No config done. Mod will do nothing. Check ini." every 10min is way better than killing the char.

I wish I got half as creative hate mail as you do, some of that is actually pretty funny.

Maybe so, but it's not like the mod corrupted a save, uninstalled Oblivion, and uploaded your personal files to the internet. It killed you with a big fat reminder of what you did wrong. Takes all of under 5 minutes to fix. I don't see why it's morally wrong to do so.

The point is that it punishes the player for not reading the ReadMe. It doesn't merely say "Hey, you forgot to do this" and simply refuse to work. Think of it this way: No one reads EULAs. We all know this. But what if, in an EULA, some software company put in some instructions that would determine whether or not you could use the program, and if you didn't follow those instructions, the program would stop you from writing on your keyboard (or playing a game). Of course it's an easy thing to change a variable in an INI file, but it's the whole point of the matter.

It's too bad you're being hated for you mod Hex, but maybe a simple "Mod not configured properly, check ini file. Oblivion will now quit" would be better. Scruggs did that with Thieve's arsenal when people were loading the game without OBSE.

I like how the majority of those comments are claiming it's "too much effort to expect me to have to read a short document and modify an ini" and then turn around and call YOU stupid. Amazing. These people are either trolls, or simply idiots. Real violence against them makes you no better then them, but you can sit back and enjoy making your excellent mod and quietly hope they earn themselves a Darwin award. The internet gives them an anonymous voice, but in real life they would probably get punched in the face for behavior like this. They're whiny loudmouthed babies looking for kicks because their lives are probably sad. Best thing you can do is learn to handle it and laugh it off, because unless the internet suddenly loses it's anonymity they're not going anywhere.

That said I played your mod, and it's a work of art, really pushing what's possible in Oblivion. I'm honestly surprised at how easy it is to play, compared to how difficult it likely is to program. I know I couldn't do anything like this. Like most I tried to load it up 'right out of the box', died, and went "oh... RTFM... right..." and resolved the issue within a few minutes. Meanwhile these infants probably cried, thought their game was ruined, and spent hours kicking holes in their walls.

I'd hate to see us lose anymore talented modders because of internet trolls and babies. I hope you disallow comments on those sites before you give up on modding all together. If you need good feedback I'm sure you can open a comment thread here. Seem to be fewer trolls, and they'll be buried quickly.

Looking forward to your next release.

I couldn't agree with you more.

Now, of course, we're veering decidedly off-topic (unless we want to start arguing about whether a very bad manner of complaining over what may be considered to be a legitimate 'beef' is 'OK' for a user), but I'll take up the 'defend modders to the bitter end' torch here.

It's a valid 'take' that the mod punishes the reader for not reading the Readme. It's even valid to say that it's something of a harsh punishment (although there is a very real possibility that it only looks harsh, to prevent real harsh consequences from not having read the readme).

It is of course, valid to say that you find this unacceptable.

It is, however, HexOff's mod, and if he (sic) wants to punish users harshly for not reading his readme, that's his good right. I think we're all agreed that the user reactions to this are themselves unacceptable, but this 'civilized objection' is not necessarily as much of an improvement as might be thought.

Modders don't have to be perfect people-- and of course, they aren't (since nobody is). Every 'customer service professional' is not necessarily perfectly polite and reasonable under all circumstances when interacting with users of the product they support. It is an illusion that they are 'supposed to' be, and it's impossible.

The mod, from all reports, works perfectly. Even the kill works perfectly-- and has no one considered that this is a very good method of preventing the user from saving with the mod active, if they have not installed/configured it properly, preventing damage to the save? If one just "disabled the workings of" the mod because the ini wasn't configured (thereby proving that the user hadn't read the readme and therefore perhaps had not done other operations necessary to allow the mod to work correctly and without 'collateral damage' to other mods, or the save), the user would probably play on with the mod enabled, but "not working"-- and would probably save in the course of so doing, with possibly far-reaching consequences. Killing the PC at least forces a reload, and said user is probably annoyed enough to quit the game... either to disable the mod completely, or to read the readme and follow any instructions inside. Win, either way (in terms of preserving the save intact).

If it seems mean-- well, HexOff can be mean if he likes... if it is indeed meanness, and not a wicked sense of humor while implementing a preventive measure designed to protect users from themselves. All he is "required" to do is provide a properly-working mod, with full and complete documentation, which he has done.

All this objection sounds a bit whiny to me, is all.

I support Hex' way of handling.

If you don't configure the mod, you cannot play with the mod activated.

I agree that people should read the readme. But I also feel that if you insult people, you can expect to be insulted back. And, since this is the internet, you can expect some of the insults to be really really horrible.

I am going to throw my opinion into the fray but not specific to any particular mod but instead on a general observation.

There is a gap knowledge wise between the modders understanding of the game, the intricacies of modding and the vast majority of mainstream players. This is most evident in the readme files of mods where the modder's use of terminology, wording etc reflects his or her intimate understanding of modding concepts.

This being the case, the mainstream player really has only two options:
1. Learn modding on far deeper level
2. Stick with simple mods with simple readme files or just go Vanilla

The modder also has two options:
1. Put more effort into the readme files but take a few steps back and when writing it assume you know nothing about modding.
2. Tons of work went into this, they are getting it for free and the least they can do is learn more - my time is better spent creating than worrying about others level of comprehension

I am not going to argue for either party being right or wrong but will say this - I would imagine that some modders on some level want people to enjoy their mods and the more the better. Thus, for them I think investing more time in creating easier to understand readme files etc would be warranted and ultimately cause less headaches since they would have to field less questions.

Like all things in life, compromise is the only true solution for both sides. Mainstream players need to understand that Oblivion is not the most mod friendly game and the modders who have overcome obstacles to create brilliant enhancements to the game need to understand that most people won't understand them once they delve into the details.

Anyways, thats my 2 cents on this matter - and oh as for the messages sent to Hex-Off... personal insults should be off limits but criticisms and even animated ones about mods should be permitted - though I think they should be made public versus sent via personal message.

Agreed, it isn't that you put in a failsafe, its that when you did you insulted people.

But it seems to have been reported that you changed the wording anyway so..

I must say, I'm rather enjoying the debate about my methods, even if we have wandered somewhat off topic. For the record I'm going to clarify a few points, but before I do let me first thank everybody (whatever their opinion) for participating in this thread, and especially ledeynne for keeping it open. The messages of support have made me feel a whole lot better and have spurred me to really get on with coding RC2 a bit faster.

No for a few key bits of information. First up why do I kill the player? Well the truth is UV does chage quite a lot of default settings - not usually permanently as that can cause conflicts, but many chages are mediated by the INI file. If that fails to load correctly there's every possibility the mod will seriously damage a player's saved game, even if it is subsequently removed. The iHaveReadTheInstructions value serves to ensure the INI has loaded correctly. If it isn't read as 1 (or isn't read at all) the only safe thing to do is kill the player and thus force a reload. The player will be unable to continue until they quit the game and reload with the INI fixed.

Now I could have just set that as a one by default, however the configuration of the INI for different setups is also required. Most notably FFP mode can cause a lot of problems (as can the weapon on back function) particularly in their beta state. I chose to force players to read the configuration section, or at least open the INI file, which contains a lot of information about the various settings in attempt to stop my inbox being filled every day with the same questions/"bug" reports.

As for the "fool" message. For right or wrong, I was watching the A-Team when I coded that, and had Mr T's voice in my head at the the time. It didn't really strike me as aggressively unpleasant. The message is deliberately non-specific for the reasons stated above. The new version says "UV has not been correctly set up - please check the INI file. Your character has been killed to prevent any damage to your saved game.".

Also clarification of what I find acceptable. I can cope with trolls, personal insults even threats - though these I particularly dislike. For those not aware of the incident that required police intervention, I was subjected to a campaign of hate where some player decided to continuously spam my inbox with indecent (nee abusive) images of young children, citing my approach to modding as proof that I "like that kind of thing."

Since that time I have been significantly less tolerant, and actually stopped modding for a while until the itch to keep going became unscratchable.

So yes, I accept that my methods are harsh, but my tolerance is (and will continue to be) significantly lower than it has been in the 20 years I've been programming/modding games.

Looking forward to hearing what you folks think of RC2

HeX

You can't compare a readme to a EULA though... an EULA doesn't tell you how to run your game. Only the legal information that nobody cares about. You can compare it to a manual though, when you buy that same program. Obviously most you perhaps don't have to read. But what if you are buying an accounting program, or even a complicated game where you need some experience to know how to play it (I'm thinking like the X3 series, a space sim game that is rather deep and complicated). If you don't read through how to use it, you're going to be lost and not know how to play the game.

I understand you not agreeing with punishing the player for not reading the readme. Obviously killing the player wasn't necessary, he could have just put a note or message for the player and disabled the mod until the .ini file was changed. But again, like I said, it takes all of what, 5 minutes to fix, exiting the game, changing .ini file, reloading game? Or are people just so attached to their character they can't stand it when they die?

We can all blame Mr. T then.

Police? I would have called the FBI.

Before I read that part, I admit, I was rolling my eyes to the original post. Personally, I look with envy at the type of hate mail you get. Try reading some of those aloud, pure comic genius, some of these guys are quite talented at insults. But yeah, if someone is breaking a state, federal or international law, that is not to be tolerated. Besides that, however, post a spam email link on your mod description page, and put your real email address in your readme, this way people who actually read the readme are able to contact you for help.

I still support Hex's approach of ensuring users actually take the time to read the needed documentation.

Regarding the modders and mod users debate, what I do not support is the approach that modders need to make more effort to effectively 'dumb down' their readmes.

From my perspective 'Why is the onus on the modder?' Have they not worked hard enough, do they now need to cater to what is in effect laziness from a portion of mod users. How much more do we expect from modders? Not only are they donating their own time and hard work to others for their enjoyment, but now we are expecting them to do even more?

When you buy a new game, what is the first thing you do? You read the installation instructions and if you do not follow them correctly you are not going to be able to use the software properly. What is the first thing you do when you buy a new piece of furniture that needs assembling or a new DVD player, you familiarize yourself with how it works, otherwise you do not have a hope in hell of using it properly. Why should mods be any different. They are not and to expect them to be any different is sheer foolishness.

Yes instructions can be confusing if you are new to the terminology, but we all had to learn what a 'philips screwdriver' is or how to work a 'disk drive' or what the devil that 'dohickeythingthatcamewiththeroundbolttypething' is. Yes it can be confusing however like everything new in life it takes a bit of learning and a bit of research. Is it really that difficult to type a few confusing words from that readme into google to find out what they are. All the information is at everyones finger tips. Not to mention there is an entire forum here and more forums where everyone goes out of their way to assist others with mods.

There simply is no need to put more pressure on modders or to hold people's hands. If someone needs help....ASK. Don't blame the modder and the terminolgy they used and have to use in their readme. What do people expect...



Okay so over exaggeration aside. Mods, like your DVD player and believe it or not your computer require some degree of knowledge to use. It simply is not unreasonable to expect users to put some effort into it and those who are not prepared to do that are not going to get far.

I am more then happy to assist users of my mods when they take the time to email me, but any abusive emails, and I do get them occassionally are instantly deleted. Most modders do go out of their way to help when politely asked and they do not deserve abuse in any way, shape or form for their efforts. That said there are many users out there that do take the time to learn, unfortunately those that cannot be bothered are the ones we hear from in the form of abuse.

Those people that sent you those comments are pathetic douchebags. They have no right to bash on you. In my opinion it's just like bashing on someone because they are a different color. It's stupid and accomplishes nothing. I don't personally use your mod, but it's because I dont think my computer can handle too much more of any type of mods. I would be all for it because vanilla combat is bland (in my opinion). I will be getting a new computer soon hopefully for school and I will be the judge them, but from what I have seen I have no reason to think the mod is "garbage."

I don't think I have ever read the instructions to a DVD player/blurayplayer/tv, or to any type of software...(mods excluded) since most of it is useless legal drivel. But that's beside the point.



Well, all I have to say is that no one will be playing their mods. Hehe. Don't get me wrong, I don't believe that modders are required to do anything, but if a modder wants to get most people playing his mod, he needs to make it as simple as possible for the mod user to install/play it.

Then you must be an exception, the majority of people confronted with a DVD player etc for the first time need to read the instructions or not get the use from it that it is capable of.





Good thing modders aren't getting paid for it then.



Nope, if a mod user wants to use a mod he is going to have to learn how to install it or he will not be able to use it, period. The user looses out, the modder looses nothing. Again with the 'not getting paid'.

And this is the crux of the matter right here, it is the user that looses out. The modder doesn't loose anything, so it is in the users best interest to take the time to read the documentation and learn about mods.

So you would condone a mod maker making a mod that required you to put in a 5 page algebraic equation to get it working?

As I said, IF the modder wants people to play his mod, he has to make it simple. You seem to forget that mod makers usually make mods for other people and their own enjoyment. Hex-off has tried to do that I think.

I would condone a modder making whatever they want to make. They are not here to serve mod users, they share their hard work and creations with mod users and we are lucky they do.
Believe me I have not forgotten anything of the kind. However I believe that mod makers make their mods for their own enjoyment otherwise they would not be making mods. I will simply repeat what I said on my own forum only yesterday...



I mod first for myself, I do not even count the number of downloads. The majority of modders who have been around for a long time are the same, as I am sure, many of the newer ones are too.

Awwwww man!!! Personally, I liked the fool message. It's very unique to load up a game, and get a message calling you a fool and die right away. It was a once in a lifetime shock-the-heck out of me experience!!! Now the next players will not be able to experience it. It was an experience i will never forget....
Plus I was :rofl:
Personally, I loved it! Can't wait for next release! Any recent news?

Edit: I don't like the new one. It doens't mention the readme at all, and it doesn't make it sound serious at all. Make it sound like your preventing something serious, or I think you'll just get more spam in you mailbox.

I never said that HeX had to do anything. All I'm saying is that I disagree with the particular method he chose. Also, there is no reason the mod would damage the save-game or corrupt anything if the proper precautions were taken. As a prime example: my Guard Overhaul uses OBSE code, but can also run on non-OBSE setups. Why? Because I took the time to code in a check to see if OBSE is running or not, and I have my code encapsulated by a variable that is only set if OBSE is properly detected. If that check isn't set, the OBSE code never runs, and the mod doesn't utilize that code, so the script doesn't crash, so the mod functions as it is supposed to. Anything that could possibly damage the game through scripting can easily be mitigated given the right coding method and system checks.

Most people also don't read ReadMes. I was only using EULAs as a prime example of things many people don't do. And there is nothing to stop a software manufacturer from insisting that they get your first born if you pirate their software (not that it would hold up in court... I think). I tend not to read ReadMes for 95% of what I download and use. The last manual I remember really reading was for Mechwarrior 2, and that was because it was an awesome little book.

Also, as per the whole "why you mod" thing - I don't mod for myself. I don't play Oblivion at all anymore. The only reason I continue modding is because it brings me joy to overcome challenges and because it makes me happy to see others enjoying my mods.