So what I got from some of these posts are : You're stupid if you try to make your character strong, you should be roleplaying, which I am getting tired of hearing.

Not everybody's a hardcoe roleplayer, it's obvious that at least SOME RPing is involved when playing an RPg, but you shouldn't have to be hardcoe just to experience a game with minimal balancing issues. You're right, a lot of people play games other than TES, SHOCKER! That doesn't mean you should generalize anyone who has complaints about the balancing as a "kid" just because they want to have fun while being the best and aren't that into fairytales.

You should be addressing the issue of everyone wanting or NEEDING to be the best, many have said that maybe it's the American culture, which practically since it's birth has been obsessed with being the best. We like to label ourselves a super-super power and look down on other countries (maybe the reason everyone hates us?).

There are just a lot of people who can't accept skyrim for what it is, and think it's important that everyone else knows that. They make this forum a dark and dreary place to visit.

Yeah, some people actually play with TGM, so I guess yeah you're right we would. The problem I have is you wanting to remove things wholesale and you don't seem to indicate that you would accept a middle road that gives us both what we want. Then you decide to answer my question like a three year old who has just learned to say [censored]. I answered you point by point on the post you told me to read. So i don't know where you would even get the idea that I hadn't read it.

Amen, brother. Skyrim is already dumbed down, I hate to think what TES VI will look like.

I think the intent of this thread is really to whine about the whining. Nice subtle redirect.

Sword n Board is from way before WoW. I was using it when describing characters in at least Diablo 1. So it was probably before that. I wouldn't be surprised if it was even from D&D table top.

As for saying kiddy garbarge screw you. I don't play anymore, but people who bash WoW really need to turn around and shut up. It has opened so many doors for so many game companies out there. When WoW launched they never expected the sub base to be over 500k at one time. They maxed out just short of 15 million. This allowed other companies to realize there is a market for those type of games. It also made it so more people were interested in games like Oblivion and the RPG world. If not for WoW Skyrim would probably never have been as large as it is. Companies like Bethesda know now there are many more millions of people out there willing to play a fantasy, dragon slaying, dungeon crawling game now than they did pre 2004.

To the OP yes the MMO mentality is invading these styles of games. Since almost every other game is online, or has some kind of online component to them everybody feels like their like their opinion is the best and must be heard and everybody wants to know what they think and about their gear. This wasn't just caused by WoW, but I would say a lot came from it sure. A game company out there needs to stop trying to feed into the mass market and please everyone and just concentrate on making a single player game if they want as good as it possibly can be. Sadly Skyrim missed on this. It's not an RPG it's an Action Playing Game.

Hopefully the next one will get back to the roots of old time single player RPG games and have some true RPG elements to it.

How is this contrary to what I said? Are you just an angry person that assumes everyone else disagrees with you so you can stay angry?
I was also in no way speaking directly to you but merely replying to the thread

You don't have to be an MMO player to see the excessive amount of simplification that affects Skyrim. I'm not even saying that's necessarily a bad thing, more casual players will probably prefer that approach. I don't, so lucky me that mods exist.

For all the bashing that WoW receives though, atleast that game has a moderately challenging endgame unlike Skyrim. And no, I've not handled a min/max playstyle at all, in fact I even purposefully restrained myself from maxing alchemy and enchanting because that'd just spoil things and I'm still using dragonplate armor instead of daedric.

the problem isn't with MMO p0layers it comes with the 'old/traditional-rpg' mentality. People who are like this think the game is dumb because it does not have a stat that reflects every portion of their life that they can improve. They more often than not enjoy it when the word 'miss' flies over and enemies head when your battle-axe clearly just cut that mans head off. They like the multi-colored orbs depicted in games like morrowind and oblivion more than the new realistic magic system. These people tend to go for the min/max strategy of making their character as strong as humanly possible and then complain about it. Because Skyrim has a couple of issues with balancing things like enchanting or blacksmithing these people rage on the forum about how their class is either too over-powered or under-powered in a single player game. Please do not compare those who enjoy traditional rpg mechanics with those who play MMO's. I play MMO's all the time and yet I am highly in favor of game that have a dynamic / physic based combat systems. Just keep this in mind when browsing the forums

1: No matter how good a game is it is never perfect
2: Different people find different things appealing in games
3: Hates gunna hate: In other words people will ALWAYS find SOMETHING to gripe about.
4: Some of the issues that exist are real and no amount of RPing will fix a backwards flying dragon or the fact your powerful archmage, a master of the arcane very low damage at the high levels.

The fact is smithing and enchanting is too easy considering the benefit they give (which has nothing to do with MMO mentality). Those 2 skills not only make you overpowered very early in the game but, most importantly, provide no entertainment for very little effort involved in mastering them. You can't focus on one problem while ignoring the other.

For example, when I want my Nord warrior to be a 2h and a black smith Master I expect similar challenge in leveling those skills. As it is now, a black smith should not make a living out of it because he will master the skill too soon. He should also not mine or loot most ingots he finds unless he plans on selling them because he will, again, master smithing too soon. Now how that makes any sense when role-playing a black smith warrior? If combat skills were that easy to master would a solution be not to engage in combat very often?

I think some of you guys have a need to defend this, without a doubt, great game beyond any reason. It has flaws,every game does, but it won't help anyone if we mutually agree to ignore them.

No, your problem is your ignorance.

Some things have to be altered/removed in order to enhance the options you have in gameplay by making some of the core mechanics actually meaningful.
Adding options/mechanics/depth to a game is good as long as those added things don't take out the meaning/fun/usefulness of other things.
By adding certain options you're actually taking options away from every player, who plays the game for a challange, for character-leveling, for looting, etc.



Following your points, leveling could have been taken out completely and replaced by a menue, which you can open up every time in the game and just set/select everything your character can do and has.
Oh yeah ... give the player all the "options". Don't make him search for dragon shouts, don't make him collect stuff, don't make him having to pay for equipment ... just give him the menue. Hell, put "spell creation" on top of it, where you can set the effect, damage and magicka cost (meaningless anyways .. even to a non-mage, who leveled not a single school) without any limits.
"Hey .. you have to 'roleplay' your character. After finding a new word wall just pretend, you would have found a new shout. Only activate a new one in the menue, if it fits the game. It's your fault, if you are 'power-gaming' and using everything the game is offering to make your character overpowered."

I like to pretend the guys from The Big Bang Theory all have accounts here. Really helps me enjoy these forums.

:bolt:

Thank you for saying this. My response would not have been as civil.

To the OP... this is America. That's how kids play games these days...

Agreed, OP, it is really obnoxious.

But these type of people aren't new with Skyrim...the last 2 games had the same thing too.

All you've done here is take words out of my mouth. You've created a strawman army here. In another thread someone was arguing about the same [censored] you are. The difference is we decided on a middle ground that not only balanced the game, but made it work for both of us, so we could both have what we wanted. All you've done is assume my ignorance and be a huge [censored]. There's no more conversation here because you want it your way, you understand gaming oh so much more than anyone else, and disagreeing with you means I'm ignorant. I'm glad that the other person I disagreed with about this topic was much more of a friendly person and in the end we came up with much more useful fixes and balances. I hope Bethesda never takes advice from people like you.

Just to name one.... Azeroth, Its more common then you think.

Thanks for bashing me in a simple post concerning certain player's and there consistent complaints that are parallel to those who frequent MMO's.

Heh, i actually am on a "Skyrim" vacation from LoTRO

One of the few MMO's i have been loyal to since release, but thats more because of the community, If Mythick made a sequel to Dark of Camelot, i would drop LoTRO for that..... Dreams.

damn people, if its too hard for you, slide it down, if its too easy on master, play in a kilt with dual shivs and never use magic nor a bow, i DARE YOU to say its still easy (no you can't enhance and/or enchant the shivs) - and yes, the vast majority of whiners are less than 13 years old and total tv retards and ex or current gnome frost mages

^ This.

I think most complaints come from people who have played more than just Oblivian, Skyrim and Fallout as RPG's and have a liking for character development, challenges and variables that you cannot controll, but can overcome. Look at the last two incarnations of TES, Skyrim is a completely different game, based on its lore. You must admit it would be quite dissapointing after waiting so many years for a release to end up with half a game.

MMO whiners where? Oh you mean the terrible balancing ? That I have to completely stay away from Enchanting and Smithing since it would make the game completely faceroll even on master.

I many be for co-op but whats with this multiple player stuff, the would of skyrim would have to bee 10-20x bigger 100x more quest, to be used as an MMO. bethesda alone would have to hire on an enormous number of new workers. overall it would not be able to be done for another 5-10 years and i fear it would destroy Elder Scrolls.

I dunno, I seem to remember a lot of people complaining about Oblivion when it was released also. It seems to take some time before they move on to another game and/or just get tired of being so negative.

However it also seems that there is a much more significant issue in the whole world today where it's hip to complain.

Louis CK does a great bit about this on the Conan show about how everything is amazing and no one is happy.

Here's the link to it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r1CZTLk-Gk

It takes time for mods to fix the design mistakes.

Most peope who complain about gamebalance complan about destruction being too weak and exploiting to easy. I believe these are not MMO issues since all games, yes even single playergames, needs gamebalance.