Thanks for the new version of the official DLC plugin refurbish. Thanks also for cleaning this latest version of the mod (I believe 1.21 had some dirty edits for Thieves Den?).

Just one comment - you may want to update your omod script so that it properly reflects that the new version is 1.30 rather than 1.21 when you load the archive.

I would like to add that the option to install the merged version should also be included since the only way to do that now is manually

@Stromgarde: Actually they are intentional dirty changes, and nothing to be alarmed at. For compatability reasons if a mod came along to mod theives den and was loaded after plugin refurbish its all needed.

@X'tyfe: Was going to but would require lots of work on the OBMM script because it needs to work out if the player has all the required mods and then allow the file to be installed. So unless someone else wants to do the script to implement it they can. Its specified in the readme the OBMM install option does not include the merged option though.

Ideas for a player advancement mod

Playing around with some ideas with player advancement, I may have a prototype at the end of the day. First and foremost the actual player levelling will be based off a SPAM approach for attribute gain.

Each level you pick your attributes to increase and each gets bonuses as akin to SPAM except we only use a single specialization.
Combat Specialization = Strength, Endurance, Speed
Magic Specialization = Intelligence, Willpower, Cunning
Stealth Specialization = Agility, Speed, Cunning

Currently planning to default to +2 for favoured attributes and +1 for specialization attributes. This will head towards a max attribute gain of +4 and min attribute gain of +1.

Thats the baseline levelling system and not much thats different in that respect. This aspect is simple and just works.

Gameplay Changes

This is where we change the mindset of how we choose are attributes and instead making level and attribute the dominant factor of over "power" rather than your skill level.

Certain attributes will now directly infuence the skill XP rates. So without a high controlling attribute, skills will not progress quickly. Then your only solution is to level up and invest in those attributes or seek out trainers to pay to raise your skills. You may have noticed above Personality no longer exists. It will now be called cunning.

Cunning will influence (Sneak, Security, Mercantile, Speechcraft) - All the utility skills will rely on a high cunning. For rogue like characters cunning is going to be very important.
Intelligence will infuence (All magic skills) - For a would be mage to reach the high rank spells they are going to need to improve intelligence to access it.
Speed will influence (Acrobatics, Athletics) - Now if you want to have moveability in your fights your going to have to invest in speed or you will always be a slow poke.

This leaves Blade, Blunt, Hand to Hand,Block, Heavy Armor, Light Armor, Marksman, Armorer which i'm still deciding how best to remove dependency on skill to relate more to your level and attributes. Its possible these skills could use some sort of wheel approach having multiple influences to allow skill gain or do different approaches all together.

• Willpower will now control the total amount of magicka available to the player
  
• Cunning and intelligence will give characters a passive resist magicka effect.
  
• Endurance and Agility will give characters a passive resist weapons effect.
  
• Speed can provide a very small bonus to attack speed (Need to investigate how doable - Dynamically change weapon speed on the fly most likely)
  
• Likely depend on SM Combat regen and SM Rest (Or may just recommend there usage instead of bundling them in)
  
• Endurance and fatigue pool will be left and handled the same way as defaults.

Future ideas after this would be complete changes to the whole way spells are obtained. Mixture of learning spells yourself, birthsign/racial leveling systems, buying a school tree and only able to obtain new spells in that school tree. You would buy a spell tree instead of spells individually and get spells specific to that tree, your level and skill.

Thats all further away though and will be a massive change of structure to many of my mods to support so I need to have this baseline player advancement system in place first.

Not sure if you can help, but I can't seem to get mana regen to work correctly using Supreme Magicka and SM Enc&Fat. I have nGCD and when I have all the regen settings selected in the ini, everything works, when I remove fatigue regen from nGCD and hand it off to SM Enc&Fat, Mana regen no longer works, removing mana regen from nGCD along with fatigue regen has the same issue, mana regen deselected only in nGCD works.

@Myriddan: Are you using supreme magicka 0.90 beta. That currently disables magicka regeneration by default when in combat. Out of combat it should regen. Check the supreme magicka ini to disable that feature. When you had it enabled it nGCD it was likely overriding supreme magickas control.

Sorry, I didn't explain it very well: In nGCD if I disable mana regen and let supreme magicka take over, mana regen works
However, if I disable mana regen, and stamina regen (or just stamina regen) in nGCD, mana regen stops working

edit: I had been using 0.89b, upgraded to 0.90b3 seems like it may have fixed it, but my save isn't showing me with any spells so I'm going to start a new one and test it

Heh, "no more reneer". :rofl:

You mean skills won't rise above the value of the attribute (Morrowind style) or that the amount of experience you gain by using a skill gets progressively lower as your skill level approaches the controlling attribute value?
Example:
Cunning 50, Sneak 50 - sneaking no longer gives any XP and cannot be raised further except through training.
Cunning 50, Sneak 40 - sneaking gives less XP as it approaches the barrier at 50.
Cunning 50, Sneak 30 - sneaking gives moderate XP.
Cunning 50, Sneak 20 - sneaking gives high XP.

By XP I mean the value you get towards your next skill level through normal use of the skill (in this case, being undetected or pickpocketing)

Either way, I've been looking for a mod to cap skills at attribute level for quite a while now, or, at least, to make attributes count more. This is looking good!



Hmm. I'm not sure about this part. Particularly the number of skills under each attribute. I mean, if you're going to have them influence the skills, then each attribute should be just as important as the others.
Or, if you're saving some for attribute influence and others for gameplay effects, perhaps assigning them differently?

Intelligence has six skills as it's taken over those from Willpower and Illusion from Personality.
Cunning has six? Mercantile, Speechcraft from Personality, Sneak and Security from Agility. You said utility skills - perhaps add Alchemy to Cunning as well (kind of goes with the poisons and assassins theme). One more is needed and I would suggest Marksman.
Speed - I see this being more useful to a stealthy character than a fighter one. Heck, with Acrobatics and Athletics is pretty much needed by everyone.
Perhaps use Strength instead? Blade, Blunt, Hand to Hand, Light Armor, Heavy Armor and Armorer?

And that leaves Block, Athletics and Acrobatics if you scrap Speed as a governing attribute.

I'm not sure this is what you're going for though as you seem to have set apart all combat skills. I'm only trying to balance out the skill load on attributes.



Willpower for Magicka is good. Since Intelligence is an attribute skill wouldn't it make sense to leave it out of these bonuses? I guess there's two ways to go about this - either you can give all attributes certain bonuses, in which case the ones without skills will need some sort of bigger boost to compensate.

Endurance for weapons resist I like as well.

Agility for some sort of dodge chance?

I'll get back to you when I have more. Let me know what you think so far!

Cheers!

cc

@crimson.cosmos: Well thats another way to do it. Actually once say cunning reached 50 and sneak reached 50 as sneak then increases after that the skill rate decreases (and then how fast towards 0 or very close to 0 skill rate is to be determined). But doing it in reverse as you suggested is another option.

Those skill lists are not what attributes influence each skill. Just which skills have the above occur to them and which attribute controls that behaviour. Yes i was kinda heading for strength for the melee skills, endurance for block and armor skills but i was not sure if the above could be too restricted on these skills. Its kinda unbalnced (thanks to Intelligence) because Intelligence is otherwise a more worthless attribute now willpower controls everything magicka pool related.

Yup the agility dodge chance is exactly the reason to give it a resist normal weapons. I gave intelligence that bonus because it just feels useless otherwise. Intelligence and cunning would represent a mental protection against enemy spell effects. Thats the idea anyhow. Also need to remember some attributes already do have bonuses from default oblivion so that can skew what should get these bonuses somewhat. The resistances are going to be extremly small anyhow as more of a bonus.

Is Supreme Magicka basically done? Also, it would be nice to have sort of an exhaustive list of which tweaks it shares with nGCD. I would like to add a page about configuring these two mods' INI files when using them together.


Edit: Thank you for the Refurbishes update, by the way.

Regarding leveling mod

So then partly it would function like Progress except that it would dynamically change the progression rates on skills the higher you raise them?

Is that right?

@Tomlong75210: Not really. the 0.90 beta still has a growing list of issues and alot feedback gathered from the intentional noticeable changes and I want to simplify things with OBSE 18 tweaks. Also i'm expecting i might create seperate mods of some functionality (maybe even revive SM Spell Levelling) and just bundle versions of those mods as optional esps with supreme magicka. This should all help in general maintainability of supreme magicka.

@Psymon: Yeah but based on the attribute that controls this aspect. e.g. for the magic skills, if intelligence is low but skill is higher than magic skill rate will be greatly reduced maybe even 0 skill rate. If intelligence is high and magic skill lower then skill rate will be the default rate.

That sounds good to me.


Thank you for the reply!
- Tomlong75210

Thanks for the update,

60 kills required for battlehorn ..I at that with MMM ..

20 days si will have to get use to that

thx for the mods SM! i really love the plugin refurbished mod, its so nice not getting those annoying pop ups when i make a new game and having requirements to do the DLC! thx

Well 60 creature deaths is not much even for default oblivion too. Its just to help make up for the loss of delay from it all randomly appearing so its intended to be an easy goal.

I considered about 3 weeks is probrobly enough time for people to have spread, talked and seen the island throughout bravil, enough that it should be common enough to be mentioned to a traveller.



@All: I've just realised i never put any empty voice files for the SM Plugin refurbish rumor text. Probrably gonna chat really fast for those without that OBSE plugin.

Hey!

Apologies, but I wasn't really clear with that example. I wrote those in reverse order but it doesn't have to be coded that way in your mod. Basically, I was going for the idea of having skills get more experience the lower they are compared to the governing attribute and closer to zero as they approach the attribute value.

Now, if those things you mentioned aren't governing attributes it does change things a bit.

You say Intelligence should influence all magic skills by limiting access to spells? How would that work? Same for Cunning and Speed. I'm uncertain about this because if they were like governing attributes then the "influence" would have come from capping and reducing the XP gain. But like this...
Also, if you're keeping the original model with 3 skills per attribute, would it be safe to say that the "slowdown" mechanic would be the way an attribute "counts"?

If you're adding bonuses to attributes, could you please use a formula that allows them to get those bonuses above 100 as well? Maybe make it a toggle in the ini or something, but compatibility out of the box with Elys' Uncapper would be really nice.

Cheers!

cc

SM Player Levelling v0.01 alpha/beta released

http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=31040

Really a first edition example. The current TODO in the readme lists what i'm looking at at least for this to get to release and is subject to changes.





@crimson.cosmos: Yup got your approach as an option in the ini by modifing the skill rate curve to negative. Defaults the opposite way for now.

The default value attribute to skill influence is ignored because of how the SPAM style levelling works. The skill rate slowdown is what will force people to invest in particular attributes or the character will stall in particular skills. Anyhow i've sorted out which attributes affect skill rates for this first test version as listed above so see what you think of those.

Yeah it already supports Elys uncapper. Well it should but havn't tested whether my code does actually work, but logically its all in there though so should.

Very interesting leveling mod, will keep my eye on this.

P.S. Nice avatar, I just watched that episode.

Hey!

Good to see it's already "palpable".

Let me ask you this - how hard would it be to have the skill-attributes relations configurable in the ini?

That is, for each attribu

If each attribute has an numerical id (Strength = 1, Endurance = 2, Speed = 3, Agility = 4, Cunning = 5, Intelligence = 6, Wisdom = 7, NoAttribute = 8).
If each skill has a distribution value of 1 - that is 100%.

For your default settings, you would have:

Strength: Block 0.66
...
Agility: Block 0.33
...
Intelligence: Alteration 1
...
NoAttribute: Alchemy 1, Armorer 1

NoAttributeCap 20

I'm not really sure how you could go about making this change script wise. I suppose you'd have to use an array for each attribute to hold the skills or something like that. That's more your department than mine.

The upside is that it would improve flexibility and allow for more customisation. The downside would be that some configurations may be less balanced than others.

Personally, I wouldn't pick Alchemy to max at level 20 because I often use characters without magic entirely and have to depend on that skill for healing. But, naturally, it's just a matter of preference.

For attributes, if you're keeping (you might have to) Vanilla bonuses as well:

Strength - melee weapon damage, fatigue amount, encumbrance
Endurance - health amount, fatigue amount, health gain per level (? this one should be retroactive I think), resist weapons
Speed - movement speed, jump length, bonus attack speed
Agility - fatigue amount, bow damage, stagger chance, resist weapons
Cunning - disposition, resist magic
Intelligence - resist magic
Willpower - fatigue amount, magicka amount

Other things you may want to consider:

Strength - attack speed (if Strength / weapon weight is really big it would swing faster), attack damage (already happens but, if you figure how to change weapon speed on the fly you might want to change weapon damage as well - bow damage too should go up here), damage weapon/armor
Endurance - resist poison/disease, fatigue consumption rate/fatigue regeneration (? this might go against your combat regen mod)
Speed - reflect damage (counter attack like)
Agility - increased chance of weapon perks happening (like the disarm/paralyse and whatever else there is)
Cunning - reflect spell
Intelligence - reflect spell (can't think of a logical reason for this, but would come in handy), global skill gain increase (smart people learn faster)
Willpower - absorb spell (this is somewhat logical)

Note: For Hand to Hand there is no weapon speed or damage to be modified on the fly (I think). Some sort of option should be found for this skill in case you implement those changes.



Don't know what DPCS is :blush: but it does sound important.

What do you mean by "Magic Skill"?

Armor affects fatigue costs is a good idea, but I think it should be a separate mod. It doesn't really have anything to do with levelling.
Same for full armor.

I like the backpack idea. Two things though - what backpack mod are you taking about? Secondly, this too might be better suited for a Fatigue overhaul mod. Not necessarily though because it does change Strength input.

I do believe though that Strength should matter for the amount of items you can equip - that is, the stuff you're wearing shouldn't be in a backpack. This would make it even more important for people wearing Heavy Armor and large weapons to raise their strength score. The hotkeyed but unequipped items should go in backpacks though.

An ini setting for how much weight a backpack adds would be nice.

For the first one (here I go again, bottom to top) - shouldn't it be as easy as reducing the experience factor for skill use to 0 for all skills as soon as the level up is reached and restore it afterwards?

Cheers!

cc

I think it's Dynamically Placed Creature Scaling (or something along that line). Basically it's a mod that attempts to replicate how the scaling works in Fallot 3, where each area has its own static level which is determined by your level when you first enter it. Thus regions you discover at level 1 will always have creatures based on your character being level 1 (roughly speaking).

Probably the average of all your magic skills.

I wish I was back there. I'm up to date, but last episode was the last of a long long marathon of filler episodes :S At least this week we are back to the good stuff




Customzation could probrably be doable with some effort.

I like the endurance resist disease/poison. I'm not too fond of the the passive reflect and absorb effects. They feel too high level to just give freely for everyone.

Hand to hand has global settings to affect those, but they affect all npcs too so not the best way to change it as it makes enemies stronger too.

Magic skill was from the staff mention. I'm talking about supreme magickas current staff tweak so each magic skill will not drain staff of enchantment as much and just going to likely make a seperate mod for it.

The backpack idea could be its own mod indeed. Its the idea you have to pay for more space to hold items.

As to stopping skill gain when you level. I presumed it would be a simple thing like that. Amazingly i can't find any way to determine when the player is ready to level. Either i've just missed it or it really doesn't exist.

Well I'm already up to date with the manga, just catching up with the anime (I stopped watching around the end of the Bounto arc). Oh and yea, on with the good stuff.

P.S. But enough offtopic talk.

-kyoma

I'm having a problem getting your Encumbrance & Fatique mod to work properly with Kuertee's Customizable HUD mod. There are 2 values it's looking for in order to get everything to display properly. One is Player.GetBaseActorValue Encumbrance, which shows my safe encumbrance limit. I've managed to get this one working properly simply by adding -4 behind it to offset the extra encumbrance your mod adds. The other one though, Player.GetActorValue Encumbrance, I just can't get to work right. I've gone through your script trying different strings hoping to get my actual encumbrance value to display but it will only show a value 2 below my safe encumbrance. The best I can do is include +2 in the ini string to at least show when I've reached my safe limit, instead of 2 below. Do you know of anything I can add there to make the HUD show my actual encumbrance? It's really driving me crazy, I've been trying now for hours.

Better yet, maybe you could consider adding some routines in order to get the mod to interact with the Kuertee's HUD additions. It's really a lovely utility but it's horribly under utilized by the community. The only mod I've seen that really makes full use of it is Real Sleep Extended. In the case of your mod, you could start with a full bar to represent 0 encumbrance then it empties until you reach your safe limit. Once there it starts filling up again in a different colour until you actually collapse from all the weight you're trying to carry. It would be much appreciated if you could add something like that.