This kind of comment...

...I've seen so often I felt it ought to have an answer. Unfortunately it generated a lot of replies and while I would love to respond, I have no intention of cluttering Arthmoor's thread with an Off-topic conversation. So, I've transplanted my post here, and also added a little poll to get a feel for how common/uncommon my situation is.

(As a disclaimer, before reading my post please know that I can come off as a little snarky and this is just a quirk. I mean no disrespect.)

Why am I still using OBMM over BAIN? In my situation it's economics. Time is one of our most limited resources. Most of my time is not free. A great deal is spent on priorities higher than screwing around with computer files and mod managers - like being the only caretaker for someone severely disabled. My other full-time job is in Medical Imaging (Quality Control). I have to manage time very carefully and anything related to Entertainment often has to get relegated to "someday". BAIN isn't the only thing I've skipped learning about where I wish I had been able to do otherwise. Going over new information will cost me time I do not have.

Over the years since Oblivion's release I did occasionally find little blocks of time here and there to deeply customize the game - and sometimes even to play it. OBMM has been a helpful tool since nearly the beginning... when Timeslip first made it available I uninstalled nearly all my mods and then went through OBMM for everything. For years there was no other comparable tool. I also used Bash from the start. By the time Wrye added BAIN I was very heavily modded already and not interested in starting from scratch. So, I currently believe I'm too invested in OBMM to bother with anything else. Maybe I overestimate the cost of switching, but these days I rarely have even thirty minutes of free time a day and I honestly hate splitting tasks like this up into chunks. When I switch systems for managing something this intricate I need it done in one sitting, and done correctly.

I'd love to know how I can instantly, transparently, seamlessly and completely switch all control of installed mods from OBMM to BAIN, including shader tweaks like Timeslip's nighteye shaders and Detailed Terrain. AFAIK, BAIN has no idea WTF I've done in OBMM and this is impossible. Correct me?

Some of the ensuing replies, addressed as I find the time:


Thanks.

I mod, too. Again, due to time constraints, not much... but plenty well I grok where you're coming from with all of this.

Ah, thanks. I thought they had to be in a special folder structure to make BAIN happy... "BAIN friendly" or somesuch.

My Oblivion folder is about 27GB heavy today and has been right around that for years... I figure 99.9% of my 500+ installed mods are in OMOD format. Even my own mods are OMOD. Long before BAIN, I needed to be able to reduce time spent on installs, uninstalls, and conflict handling.


Not trying to persuade you to change, or asking to be convinced that I should. I already want to switch, but don't think I can. No need to sell me on how BAIN is a better tool... "I believe", brother.


I appreciate the sentiment.


Thanks for the constructive elements of your reply. Your assessment/contrast between time taken to post and time necessary to look at your guide is noted, but not accurate. I compose text and type very rapidly, but take a lot of time to re-read instructions because I'm careful.


Thanks for the very constructive reply. Sounds like I wasn't far off in thinking this would be too much to get done in one sitting.

Well I voted - though I'm not sure how you will get meaningful data if you can't separate out those who are dissatisfied with OBMM versus BAIN.

I suppose some meaning could be derived from the fact that most voted for one over the other and most are or are not satisfied.

As for bias - yep that is me - and my http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1084204-bain-mod-installation-projects/page__view__findpost__p__15798012 ... some might call a plea.

Yourself included, I have to give serious kudos to anyone who answers the last question truthfully. I wasn't expecting a lot of honesty there.

I will definitely give your plea a read.

I am strongly opinionated on the subject of mod managers only to the point that I want people to use OBMM or BAIN to install Oblivion XP I don't care how they install my other mod - it is quite straightforward. But 99% of the problems people have with Oblivion XP are due to installation issues. I also don't care if they use OBMM or BAIN. I have packaged it as a BAIN compatible archive with omod conversion data, so both users should be able to install it.

I use both OBMM and BAIN and will continue to do so. I will probably move completely over to BAIN once BAIN wizards have the ability to alter mod configuration files. I anticipate continuing to package my mods as compatible with both utilities for the forseeable future.

Well despite the fact that your last poll question is seriously biased in a negative way, I chose to answer yes for reasons you've already quoted

I should also clarify that you don't have to go into the whole subpackages thing, that's only really necessary for something like RAEVWD where it has distinct parts you can separate. Normal mods with an ESP, meshes, and textures can just be a straight up archive file and those get installed in the simplest possible way: right-click package->install.

As long as people aren't packaging their mods in odd ways when archiving them BAIN has no issue with it. Odd ways being something like having "My Mod\Data\Stuff Here" for a folder structure. Although I'm not sure OBMM would care for that either.

Thanks for answering "yes" if you feel "yes" is accurate. I respect if you don't agree with my bias. That bias is a response to serious RL events that have given me a particular perspective, both on the importance of entertainment and on where it's really appropriate to feel strongly. I hope that in turn you can respect that.


Thanks sincerely for the added information/clarification. Your expertise and the time spent acquiring it are valued.

"If I have [modded] further [than some] it is only by standing on the shoulders of giants." -Sir Isaac Newton

Well if you go back and look at Morrowind mods that are nearly 8 years old or mods that came out in 2006-2008 you see a lot of really odd packaging. Annoying in fact. As if you were supposed to extract the archive at the directory level of Oblivion folder. Then all the odd ways in which alternate versions of directories are packaged and stored in the oddest places. Then further take a look at the original packaging of body mods like Roberts male - couldn't be more user unfriendly.

Lyobovnik-

I started out doing manual installs (did that twice) then discovered OBMM and installed a few times after that. Then having it crash a few times and lose all information about what was installed and having to reinstall all OMODs I was relieved when BAIN came out. It seemed to address all the shortcomings of OBMM. Wrye opted to not have it handle shaders and OBSE plugins but the current developers are implementing these features now. If BAIN wizards take off then really the only thing OBMM can do that BAIN can't is merge and manage shaders (BAIN can install them though).

My first BAIN install I did packaging bit by bit leaving omods alone and then removing them as a BAIN package took its place. The great thing about BAIN is that once the package is made it is good unless there is an update. It is true that I tend to describe things in a complicated way and my first thread on the subject was an exercise in OCD modding, but most mods can be very easily seen (at first glance often) as either BAIN ready or not and being BAIN ready means super simple packaging. Every Oblivion install from there on was just shifting BAIN packages around and annealing.

So when BAIN came to fallout3 it was the same scenario, except there I packaged it all up first then removed all FOMODs and with the same save game used BAIN from there on.

I've commented before that it is mod makers who have mods that need a lot of ini adjusting that are the largest proponents of OMODs. That is meant to be slightly sarcastic, but I do think that OMODs give the false sense that this game is all plug and play and that conflict detection or seeing visually what is happening in the data folder is not important.

It is, but only if you use more mods. The less you use the less important that it is.

Most people here will recommend you use BAIN.

I find it much easier to manage everything by having a 'toolbox' folder I can get to easily that has shortcuts to everything. Just a little tip.

What's your Mod Installation & Management scenario?

Had to go with "I install and manage mods using BAIN." - Theres no option for Use both BAIN and OMOD (admittedly I only use OMOD for one mod)

How do you feel about your Mod Installation & Management situation?

Satisfactory; I don't plan to change it - With one caveat; When Wrye Bash development of C-Bash matures (I believe it is very stable/reliable requiring just one section of imports needing conversion) - I will change to that mode of operation purely for the remarkable speed increase building the bashed patch.

Are you highly opinionated on the topic of mod managers?

No.....

Biased? yes definately, the main reasons for that being http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1168208-something-about-omods-that-really-annoy-me/

But as has been mentioned throughout this forum each manager still has exclusive uses. As development of Wrye Bash has gone on more and more I find OBMM left in the cupboard, I started modding Oblivion with a combination of manual and omod installation, frustrated by sometimes unsolveable conflicts (and the time it took to resolve them, re-installing the game), I looked into BAIN.

Now as for time management, I would highly recommend BAIN to a new user who has a good enough level of understanding/patience to overcome the initial hurdle of understanding - Purely because a more stable game can be achieved easier, un-install/re-install is quicker, swapping out mods is easier, conflict resolution is guaranteed. With a Bash Installers folder full of zips backed up, I can go from disaster struck the hard drive to complete re-install and play on from last save (for multiple users in our household) within 30 minutes. Remembering which mods to 'activate' and in what order is no longer a problem either.

I think your biggest hurdle is ..


Initially that was the only thing holding back from converting, a seemingly huge mountain to overcome.

But long term ... you will find you spend even less time doing such things.

Depends how long you intend modding Oblivion for and if the initial investment in converting is worth it.

I couldn't vote. You didn't provide an option for using *both* OBMM and BAIN depending on the mod.

and...



Friends, the area of concern is multiple-select so that you can put both if you want. I regret not accurately predicting how this would confuse.

I install both using Bain (for large mods) and manually (for small things like new armour).

I'm quite satisfied with it. Would I ever switch to OBMM? No. I have what I need. Bain is the only tool I know (thanks to Arthmoor and Dwip for teaching me) and the only tool I'll stay with. Does that leave me highly opinionated? I don't think so. I wouldn't tell anyone to use one over the other, I would simply offer supporting information.

I think as a community we're lucky enough to even have a choice of management tools.

I know half of the reason I use at least one mouse a year is from answering yes when OBMM asks me if I would like to overwrite a file when installing mods, The biggest pain in using BAIN is converting all of the mods I have downloaded and decided to keep stored. In my opinion BAIN is superior once you get over the fear of using it.

Yes, we are lucky! Thanks for your perspective, Hanaisse!

I am sorry for your loss. Thankfully the version of OBMM I use (Scenttree's "Extended") doesn't have endless dialog boxes for that. A list of files with checkboxes is a big improvement for which I'm very grateful.

Just hold down the CTRL key when clicking on Yes or No - it applies that response to everything. Only do this if you're sure you want ALL the resources in the mod you are installing to overwrite others.

I voted for both OBMM and BAIN myself, and yes to the strong opinion - I felt the additional wording on that was more humorous than negative

As many of you probably know by now, I generally think BAIN is better for experienced modders (or experienced PC users), but that OBMM is quite a bit easier to start with, since it has much less information overload - so I will not recommend BAIN to newcomers unless they seem to be an experienced PC users.

Not a big deal, but that is actually one of OBMM's advantages. If there is one clear data folder (e.g. not esp files in more than one folder, etc.), OBMM doesn't care whether its packed as in your example, as "Data\Stuff Here" or simply as "Stuff Here" - but there is one strange requirement: OBMM only handles this right if the modder chooses "Add archive" and adds the compressed archive. If he instead unpacks the archive and chooses "Add folder", OBMM gets as picky as BAIN when it comes to the folder structure.


Noticed that, and voted for both.

Well I ticked OMOD and manual. I used OBMM when I first discovered mods, and when I became a modder myself and pretty much forgot that there's actually a playable game behind all this modding, I switched to manual installing as it was quicker and easier (I know what I'm doing). I just cannot be bothered to learn how to use BAIN and how it works and what it does differently, I don't see the point right now. I was also initially put off by the way in which it was first promoted when released, attitudes of some people put a negative blot against BAIN for me, and in response, I've simply avoided it. Couple that with the fact that my main modding partner tried it and hated it, I just saw no reason to bother with BAIN.

Which I admit is rather a funny reaction from me, since I normally embrace new modding tools and methods instantly.

Do people seriously hold 2-3 year old issues against the modern state of these things? Is that why there's so much anti-BAIN hatred outside of these forums? Is that why to this day, 3 years later, one of the mods I control is still fending off blatantly false rumors about it?

I'll freely admit that at first I was indifferent to BAIN, and stuck to doing manual installs after actually trying OBMM put me off from ever bothering, but once I actually tried BAIN I'll never go back. The benefits far outweigh any residual clunkiness it may still have and definitely outweigh the stigma it seems to have picked up from people who don't even use it.

Ismelda tried it, she doesn't like it. That's perfectly fine. Just like I tried OBMM and dislike it. But basing an opinion on something like this when you've never even used it.... wow.

If I could rewrite history I would be using BAIN but I went with OBMM :shrug: . Time, or lack of it, is the main reason I don't change over. But, other than the painfully slow startup time, I don't have any real issues with OBMM (extended). The file over-write issue is virtually a non-issue, for me anyway. I have two big omods for body and UI mods which negates tedious install order problems. Personal taste, and a lacklustre pc, means my mod selection is predominately gameplay in focus so perhaps I am a poor example

I install nearly every mod manually, save for a few installed/activated using OBMM, which I use to enable the mods I've installed anyway. I was tempted to check both manual and OBMM because technically it's true but I decided to only check manual since I've done at least 90% of mods that way.

Anyway, while I wouldn't ever recommend doing things manually as the most efficient or easy way to do things, I think it may be the most educational. I very quickly learned the directory structure of the game and its archives, how it accesses meshes and textures, and so on. I would have probably figured out all this stuff eventually, but my particular technique of backing up specific files overwritten by a mod when installing it helped me to learn things a lot faster. Now, if I had to back up each individual subdirectory prior to installing something it would just be a total hassle, so I only do it when I'm skeptical about the functionality of or my eventual satisfaction with a particular mod. Otherwise I just regularly backup my Data folder, especially prior to installing major overhauls, so I can just restore it, or the specific subdirectories, if something goes wrong. But more often I simply use backups as references, checking the dates on particular files if I'm confused what I currently have installed and comparing to an earlier state of the game might clarify things. Maybe this sounds like an annoying and convoluted system, but in reality the majority of time spent tending to mod installations for me simply involves extracting an archive to my data folder and confirming merges/overwrites. And on the rare occasions I want to uninstall something I just restore the folders it modifies using my backups.

I'm not suggesting anyone adopt this as an alternative to the simpler, more efficient mod installation options. It's just the most transparent, it helped me figure out how things work pretty quickly, and I thought I'd share my little process.

I voted BAIN, not realizing we could select both that and OBMM. I could of course redo and include both, but will leave it as is. This current play-through I have a grand total of one "mod" OMOD and several utility OMODs. All else is BAIN packages. My sole manual install is the utility Oblivion Stutter Remover. Even that was originally an OMOD, but it's only one tiny file and has seen numerous recent updates. Not worth the trouble of creating an OMOD for, imo. But it is THE exception and will likely remain so.

My first play-through, like most folk, began with manual installs. I soon discovered OBMM and learned to create OMODs. From then on all mods were installed as OMODs except those few that came as executables. (I later learned to convert those to OMODs too.) It contained not one single BAIN package. In fact I didn't even use a Bashed Patch until several months before beginning my second play-through.

OMODs worked well for me then. I ran no complex major overhauls, and only a few texture replacers. The vast majority of my mods were either quests or added structures and locales (villages, cities, etc.) In other words I had very little overlap and conflict. OBMMs limitations were not overly exposed.

I still think OBMM is fine for folk who run few mods or, like my first play-through, don't encounter many if any conflicts. That said, BAIN is the better install utility. Wrye Bash has its faults but hey, there's no reason not to keep OBMM around for those few things it does better.

-Decrepit-

Palidoo-

Yes that sounds like an annoying and convoluted system, but I appreciate the point of view of it being educational.

If you ever get around to exploring BAIN though you will find that it is really just a system for automating what manual by-hand installing is. You still have to see/know where things are going when packaging - it just removed the tedious aspect of taking out each file one at a time after you decide you don't want it.

I liked tinkering and building a complex load order by hand too and it was educational the first few times. Now I just want to know what is conflicting with what and really BAIN is what provides that.

That you can shift installed data files as easily as you can shift load order in OBMM, to me, means never having to reinstall again. And that has remained true. It is the same logic as manual installing - automated.

Vorian's post was interesting. BC is a great example of a mod that benefits from BAIN.

Yeah, I imagine in future playthroughs I'll switch to BAIN to make things a lot simpler swapping things in and out. But right now I very rarely uninstall anything, and what I install is mostly straightforward stuff without any extra options or alternatives, so it's all just extracting things with WinRAR and enabling ESPs in OBMM. And I don't want to overemphasize the whole educational aspect, because honestly after the first half dozen or so mods and figuring out what that archive invalidation business was I pretty much knew everything I needed to know, heh. I just need to be here to represent the handful of stubborn dummies who insist on doing everything manually

I put my vote for BAIN. I don't have a particular grudge against OBMM, an still run some mods through it and recommend it as a starting point for new users, however, to be clear, I firmly believe that BAIN is the best way to manage a medium sized or larger install and essential for monitoring things like texture and LOD quad installs.

Switching over to BAIN from OBMM was a gradual process for me, however, running installations through OBMM alone (as I did in the past) was quite painful and I quickly learned which tool was better. OBMM might be a good starting point but it simply isn't the way to go in the long run.