"Mod Installation & Management" methods : IV - Oblivion

» Mon May 02, 2011 11:32 pm

Do people seriously hold 2-3 year old issues against the modern state of these things? Is that why there's so much anti-BAIN hatred outside of these forums? Is that why to this day, 3 years later, one of the mods I control is still fending off blatantly false rumors about it?

I'll freely admit that at first I was indifferent to BAIN, and stuck to doing manual installs after actually trying OBMM put me off from ever bothering, but once I actually tried BAIN I'll never go back. The benefits far outweigh any residual clunkiness it may still have and definitely outweigh the stigma it seems to have picked up from people who don't even use it.

Ismelda tried it, she doesn't like it. That's perfectly fine. Just like I tried OBMM and dislike it. But basing an opinion on something like this when you've never even used it.... wow.

No, I don't base my opinion on Ismelda's attempt, that merely reinforced my opinion that BAIN wasn't worth the effort. In fact in spite of Ismelda trying and hating BAIN, it was she who insisted on completely reshaping the Better Cities OMOD-ready archives so that they were fully BAIN-compatible, and she who produced the installation instructions for Better Cities with BAIN, so even though she hated it, she still put in the work to make BC BAIN-ready (and since she handles the archive packing and uploading, I had no need to get involved with that). Plus, Ismelda tried BAIN ages ago, when it first came out, it's been enhanced since then, maybe if she tried to use it again she'd like it - however since she doesn't play Oblivion any more and doesn't really mod either, I don't see that happening.

Skip this bit if you don't care about my Oblivion life-history:

Spoiler

What you do need to consider is that I said I don't really play the game, and I haven't for as long as I have been modding (which is over three years, is it four? I've lost track). For a long time I maintained a fully modded installation of the game (using OMODs as BAIN didn't exist), reinstalling updated mods as they came out, adding interesting-sounding mods as they appeared, but mostly just downloading so many mods which might have been good and dumping them in a folder of untested mods. This folder became so massive (around 40gb I think of mods I had never even unpacked - just read the Nexus Description and clicked download) that I decided to go through that folder and make a firmer decision based on Nexus and readmes as to how desirable they truly were. And I was surprised to discover that I had downloaded a ton of mods which appealed to me three (four?) years ago but which now I just didn't have an interest in, and greatly reduced the content of this folder. At this point I also stopped downloading every single mod which sounded interesting, and only downloaded those which sounded amazing. Then I went on to sort through everything already installed (as OMODs) and wiped out those which no longer appealed (even though I had yet to play the game with them active) - and then I went through what remained to see which mods I could merge together to reduce my ESP count from over 500 to under 255 (and also resources into BSAs to reduce subfolder clutter). By the time I'd done all that, I had several mod archives combined together, and OMODing became rather redundant. It was easier to just drop the merged ESPs and BSAs with the odd loose resource folders straight in, and use OBMM to adjust load order (since Wrye Bash is rather poor at manual load order adjustment of individual files).
And THEN I created a new Data folder purely for modding in (renaming the old Data folder so I could switch between them), which wasn't filled with every installed mod and resource and BSA from the mods I planned to play with, it just contained the files I was editing, and the files I needed to reference when editing. Manual installation just makes more sense for me.

My opinion isn't so much that BAIN is bad or inferior or anything, but rather that it isn't worth me taking the effort to learn to use it since manual installation is so quick and simple, and for my gaming Data folder which never gets used, so much is already installed anyway.

I don't have a 2-3 year old issue with BAIN, I simply remember what certain people were like back then, and don't feel any need to find out if they were right in spite of their attitudes. What's the point, when manual installation and OBMM installation works just fine for me?
I also recommend OMOD installation to others because it's what I know, I can say that OMOD installation of mods like Better Cities is much easier than a manual installation. I don't say BAIN is harder or easier, because I don't know, so I simply don't recommend it or advise against it. What I do say is that it is better in general to use either OBMM or BAIN to install mods than to install manually, for those who don't have a good grasp of how mods work and what the files do etc.

Vorians post was interesting. BC is a great example of a mod that benefits from BAIN.

That's good to hear, since I've never tried installing BC with BAIN, I wouldn't know that

» Mon May 02, 2011 7:27 pm

Mods that showcase the benefits each installation utility:

Wrye Bash: http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=35099.
This is a quite useful mod in its own right, darkening the vast majority of vanilla Oblivion "dungeon" interiors Beyond that, it makes what would otherwise be a cumbersome and lengthy install routine a snap. It comes with many built-in quest-mod (and other mod) addons, and is smart enough to enable only those you need while re-building your Bashed-Patch. About all you have to do is double check and make sure its "tag" is properly selected at the start of the build process. The mod's Nexus description page explains it better than I can.

OBMM: http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=19628.
This is one of my very first mod installs and remains a cornerstone of any play-through. The scripted OMOD install routine brings out the best in this format. Admittedly, I now install it as a BAIN package, but that's for potential conflict resolution rather than install preference. (Note: I have not yet updated to the latest version of AWLS so do not know how the new BAIN wizard compares to the OMOD script. That's beside the point and does not distract from how excellent the script is.)

» Tue May 03, 2011 3:43 am

Mods that showcase the benefits each installation utility:

Wrye Bash: http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=35099.
This is a quite useful mod in its own right, darkening the vast majority of vanilla Oblivion "dungeon" interiors Beyond that, it makes what would otherwise be a cumbersome and lengthy install routine a snap. It comes with many built-in quest-mod (and other mod) addons, and is smart enough to enable only those you need while re-building your Bashed-Patch. About all you have to do is double check and make sure its "tag" is properly selected at the start of the build process. The mod's Nexus description page explains it better than I can.

OBMM: http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=19628.
This is one of my very first mod installs and remains a cornerstone of any play-through. The scripted OMOD install routine brings out the best in this format. Admittedly, I now install it as a BAIN package, but that's for potential conflict resolution rather than install preference. (Note: I have not yet updated to the latest version of AWLS so do not know how the new BAIN wizard compares to the OMOD script. That's beside the point and does not distract from how excellent the script is.)

I can safely say that the new wizard is brilliant and would love it if more complex mods had BAIN wizards written for them. I've been slowly moving from OBMM to BAIN, generally swapping when new versions of mods come out. I might do a full (or full as I dare) conversion when I get the time and inclination.

Artorius.

» Mon May 02, 2011 8:42 pm

Yourself included, I have to give serious kudos to anyone who answers the last question truthfully. I wasn't expecting a lot of honesty there.

I used OMODs and OBMM in the past wherever I could. After a certain number of installed mods, updating them with OBMM became a problem - invariably, there was a time assets from various mods overlapped.
There was a discussion about it and I remember getting myself involved in rants with fans of OBMM. (Nowadays I know better, too.)

After some time, Wrye gave some thought to it and invented BAIN. Learning to pack the mods to the new format and using it was straightforward to me because it solved all my problems with the previous mod manager.
I cannot give you a truthfully answer to that question - only you can.

For what is worth, I already gave you some hints on the level of difficulty you would have to endure to migrate .omod to .7z BAIN archive. Other than that, I already compared the two so I'm not going to repeat that.

All I can say is, if you think it is worth it, go for it, you won't regret it. Best of luck.

» Tue May 03, 2011 5:09 am

It was easier to just drop the merged ESPs and BSAs with the odd loose resource folders straight in, and use OBMM to adjust load order (since Wrye Bash is rather poor at manual load order adjustment of individual files).

Your post boils down to that you do things in your own way, which is fine, because you and I are not all together different on that. I myself also tend to repack certain things in BSA format and when I do, I don't bother with any form of utility assisted install, I just unpack those mods straight to the Data folder because BSAs are just that easy. If Oblivion didn't have issues with file counts, I'd be strongly recommending that all mods pack with BSAs because it's dead simple to remove those.

Your comment on Wrye Bash though is out of date. It seems you may not be fully aware that it has drag and drop support for not only moving a single file to wherever you might want it, but you can do the same with multiple files. It's no longer restricted to just using ctrl-up or ctrl-down or manually redating a file.

» Tue May 03, 2011 1:28 am

Your post boils down to that you do things in your own way, which is fine, because you and I are not all together different on that. I myself also tend to repack certain things in BSA format and when I do, I don't bother with any form of utility assisted install, I just unpack those mods straight to the Data folder because BSAs are just that easy. If Oblivion didn't have issues with file counts, I'd be strongly recommending that all mods pack with BSAs because it's dead simple to remove those.

Your comment on Wrye Bash though is out of date. It seems you may not be fully aware that it has drag and drop support for not only moving a single file to wherever you might want it, but you can do the same with multiple files. It's no longer restricted to just using ctrl-up or ctrl-down or manually redating a file.

Indeed, well that is the point of this thread

"Poll: Personally, I'm using OBMM nearly exclusively, but am weighing ObMM-to-BAIN migration. How about you?" This is me.

Ctrl+Up and Ctrl+Down stopped working many, many versions ago (back when I still had Win XP installed), and I just tried drag and drop (I wasn't aware of this) but it doesn't work. The only remaining way to change load order has been right-click File>Redate then type in the Day/Month/Year Hour:Minute:Second, which is cumbersome. But you imply that Ctrl+Up/Down is still meant to work, which puzzles me, as it has been so long since it stopped working for me; I've reinstalled XP at least once, and switched to Win 7 (clean install) since the day (two years ago I'd guess) I installed a Wrye Bash update and found Ctrl+Up/Down had stopped functioning. In fact I've just remembered, I have even bought a new PC and again installed Win 7 onto it since that day.

» Mon May 02, 2011 11:42 pm

Yes, the ctrl.arrow keys work as does drag and drop. If they're not working for you, something didn't go right when you installed Bash. I'd have gone insane by now if I needed to manually redate things to move them.

Maybe time to do a clean install of Bash using the new installers?

» Tue May 03, 2011 5:35 am

Vorians- get the latest bash and you will find that drag and drop works for both mods (plugins) and BAIN packages.

Making install order on BAIN packages a matter of drag and drop and then click anneal.

» Mon May 02, 2011 11:51 pm

Yes, the ctrl.arrow keys work as does drag and drop. If they're not working for you, something didn't go right when you installed Bash. I'd have gone insane by now if I needed to manually redate things to move them.

Maybe time to do a clean install of Bash using the new installers?

I'll reaffirm that ctrl-arrow works with Wrye Bash, not that Arthmoor needs my backing. In fact it remains my preferred method for altering install and load orders. I began installing via BAIN only recently (mid 2010) so have no real experience with Wrye Bash prior to release 287 (other than for Bash Patches), but both it and 291 handle ctrl-arrow manipulation without issue.

» Tue May 03, 2011 4:53 am

The magic of BAIN is when you have to reinstall things that conflict... if you ar a mod user who frequently tries new mods, BAIN is the way to go.

Take me for example. I play with 254 mods (FCOM, BC, UL+++), with multiple 60+ merged mods included (thanks to tips from Psymon, Petrus, and all the gurus here). I am guessing the total is 330+

My wife says that I play less and tweak more. My gaming time starts with running BOMM, checking this forum and nexus for any new and interesting mods, updating to new versions of mods (Thanks TNO :teehee:) , bash patch creation (if required), and then playing. I enjoy this, so it is not a drudgery (except waiting while the bashed patch is created - I therefore hate clean saves).

Using OBMM, I would have given up Oblivion by now. Agreed that it was a pain transitioning from OBMM (mindless clicking without knowing what happens in the black box) to BAIN (read, read, read - this was pre-alternity's guide). But Tomlong and Psymon came to the rescue - it took me a week to read their guides and convert FCOM to BAIN-friendly, but the transition helps me greatly. Troubleshooting is a breeze now

I request modders for more BCFs and BAIN-friendly packages, and want Surazal to go back to BAIN so that I can dump obmm once and for all...

» Tue May 03, 2011 1:25 am

I was a late adopter of BAIN. I preferred to manually install most everything. I am busy in 'real life' and the learning curve was too great. Or so I thought...

Several months ago I finally took the plunge and learned to use BAIN. Once I learned to use BAIN, the time savings and flexibility it provides vastly improved my modded Oblivion experience. I drastically change my installed/loaded mods almost weekly. With BAIN I can reconfgure my installation over and over and have yet to wreck my game and require or even feel the need for a dreaded reinstall. With BAIN I am in almost total control of my install and I can identify and repair resource conflicts with minimal effort. I can't believe it took me several years to get around to learning to use BAIN and build custom BAIN archives and write wizards. :facepalm:

Just my experience...

Regards,

Hem

» Mon May 02, 2011 7:11 pm

Well I ticked OMOD and manual. I used OBMM when I first discovered mods, and when I became a modder myself and pretty much forgot that there's actually a playable game behind all this modding, I switched to manual installing as it was quicker and easier (I know what I'm doing). I just cannot be bothered to learn how to use BAIN and how it works and what it does differently, I don't see the point right now. I was also initially put off by the way in which it was first promoted when released, attitudes of some people put a negative blot against BAIN for me, and in response, I've simply avoided it. Couple that with the fact that my main modding partner tried it and hated it, I just saw no reason to bother with BAIN.

Which I admit is rather a funny reaction from me, since I normally embrace new modding tools and methods instantly.

This.

I use OBMM 95% of the time. Because OBMM works for me, and I actually use a lot of mods (but, I don't make a lot of massive changes).

That said, I also use Wrye to check for conflicts and to move mods around (OBMM broke once and even though I fixed it, I still use Wrye to move mods around AFTER I've used BOSS).

I also do a small amount of manual mod placement.

All the above said, I "may" use BAIN in the future. But, only due to alt3rn1ty going to the trouble of making a usable (by someone challenged such as myself) guide. Plus good folks like Psymon and others being willing to continually answer questions from old newbies like myself : ) For some reason, I've had a mental block in understanding Wrye (not to mention Bain). It's not a left brain/right brain issue. I'm pretty sure it's a "no brain" issue : )

However, I'd say it's a good possibility that I may never go to BAIN because I've got "my oblivion" figured out very well with OBMM, know what to install first, know the possible conflicts, know what mods need to be removed in sequence and then reinstalled correctly in sequence. I can do it in my sleep (well, relatively speaking). I would imagine that there are a lot of people around like that (due to OBMM being used for so long).

Also, I don't play Oblivion very often, so a little work in OBMM goes a long way.

And, finally, at the speed I move (or, rather, don't move), Tes V will be out and new tools will be available (maybe).

I think, in the end, just use whatever tool fits your needs, skills, and personality.

Damn, I'm just tickled pink that there are a lot of great people around making "any" tools. A person can actually choose from a selection. That's awesome. My fedora is off to all the tool and mod makers. gamesas owes you big time.

Thanks,

Tarl

» Tue May 03, 2011 12:15 am

I've reinstalled and modded Oblivion once every year or two since it came out, and so have used both OBMM and BAIN pretty extensively. From experience I can say that BAIN is by far the easiest way to install a mod, and it makes troubleshooting a lot easier. That said, modding Oblivion from scratch takes a long time no matter what sort of process you use! You can really only install a couple mods at a time before diagnosing a crash or error becomes too time-consuming (looking up missing meshes, checking the mod's patch notes to see if you missed something, posting on the forums.... :rofl: ) This isn't as large a problem any more thanks to experience, ever-improving mod quality and BOSS, but it happens.

I would still recommend OBMM to anybody modding Oblivion for the first time. It's less intimidating to learn for a casual user. Then half a year down the line when they are hooked, introduce them to BAIN :evil:

.

Edit: BOSS, not BOMM, same difference I guess

Also, in regards to long-time users switching between the two, if I were lyobovnik, I probably wouldn't switch. If you are happy with your current installation and mod-setup, why switch? Don't fix it if it ain't broke. Different story if you want to start anew...

» Tue May 03, 2011 5:41 am

My personal choice is BAIN. I use it to install everything except Surazal's Sensual Walks and even then find the esps and animations installed and bring them to a Bain package (a bit OCD, but hey). I don't use wizards (yet) because I tend to repackage most of mods into sub-packages of packages like "Immersion", or "Texture Replacers" and the like.

And I may be going a bit off-topic here when I say, we always talk about Bain likes it a separate manager as opposed to being a part of Wyre Bash. I thinks that does it a disservice. Because even if it was a separate manager I would still use Wrye Bash even if I used OBMM for installs. I might be able to live with OBMM instead of Bain, but I don't think I could have the Oblivion experience I have without Wrye Bash.

Having Bain as a part of Wrye Bash is just the gravy on the mashed potatoes.

» Tue May 03, 2011 8:52 am

Yes, the ctrl.arrow keys work as does drag and drop. If they're not working for you, something didn't go right when you installed Bash. I'd have gone insane by now if I needed to manually redate things to move them.

Maybe time to do a clean install of Bash using the new installers?

Vorians- get the latest bash and you will find that drag and drop works for both mods (plugins) and BAIN packages.

Making install order on BAIN packages a matter of drag and drop and then click anneal.

That's difficult, since there isn't a version of Bash later than the one I currently have installed. And since this PC (and thus this installation of Win 7) has only existed since 13th January, that means I installed 289 so that I could install the 290 update, and then installed 291 when it was released later that month. It's not like I'm working with a version where I've installed update over update over update here, and don't forget I didn't have the Ctrl+Up/Down working on my previous PC with Win 7, nor on that same previous PC with Win XP (which is very likely to have been reinstalled at least once). So it hasn't been working for many versions and many installations.
One thing I have had (probably) that whole time is the same keyboard, but the Ctrl key works fine in any other program.

Fortunately, since I created a new Data folder just for modding (yes both Data folders are up-to-date with Wrye Bash installations, and no I did not have the 2nd Data folder when the Ctrl+Up/Down first stopped working), I have very few ESPs in there at any one time, and typically all I need to do with regards load order is place one ESP from higher up after another, so I just redate to "now" (which is the default) and place it at the end. Then I can run BOSS to put it back to its normal location later.

I wasn't aware that BAIN packages themselves were load order-dependant, what's the point of that?

» Mon May 02, 2011 10:52 pm

The packages are not load order dependent. They do however have an install order that is maintained for the purposes of the annealing function. That's how it keeps track of which versions of resources should be in place when a mod is removed or added. Both orders could very well be the same, or they could be quite different.

So if you have a mod that installs, say, chickens, but you find out it uses older chicken meshes than another mod you already installed that uses updated chicken meshes, you can move the package for the one with old meshes into a new position, then tell Bash to anneal the package which will exchange the files for the proper versions from the other mod. Something which OBMM doesn't even have the ability to do.

» Tue May 03, 2011 6:24 am

I wasn't aware that BAIN packages themselves were load order-dependant, what's the point of that?

Install order, not load order, have a look at the images tab http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=35230, scroll down to Installers Intro section and screen 4.

Edit:

ninja'd back :toughninja:

Forgot to mention for Decrepit:

~snip~ My sole manual install is the utility Oblivion Stutter Remover. Even that was originally an OMOD

That can now be BAIN too - Installers Advanced, screen 15

» Tue May 03, 2011 3:53 am

The whole install order and annealing was what made me go bonkers over BAIN in the first thread I wrote.

Take for instance http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/957424-custom-bain-projects/page__view__findpost__p__13905887 which is one of the few packages from that old thread I still use - two years later.

With it I packaged up the best sun, stars, moons, nebula replacers I could find and then ordered the subpackages much like how brumbeck does the AWLS approach. I can anneal in and out replacers with very little hassle (well opening BAIN) such that it is like the cosmic sky cycling mod done manually.

So this annealing thing can happen within one package and between packages.

Better Cities BAIN makes use of this feature.

» Tue May 03, 2011 5:22 am

I mostly use OBMM, as I'm an 'old newbie' to steal someone else's phrase. I started using OBMM as soon as I started using mods (in 2007) and have stuck with it ever since. I am however thinking of changing to BAIN (gradually, I have loads of loads of backed up OMOds that I will probably continue to use until they are outdated)

Anyway, this seems like a good place to ask about texture replacers and how they work in each system (this is the reason I'm thinking of moving over). I'm currently messing about with various texture packs and want more flexibility. Is my understanding of how OBMM handles things correct.

Say I install texture pack 1 as an OMOD, it has textures A B and C in it.
Then I install texture pack 2 as an OMOD, it has textures B and C in it.
Then I install texture pack 3 as an OMOD, it has textures A and C in it.

At this point I get A and C from TP3 and B from TP2

But I decide i don't like TP3's version of A, I want TP1's version. If I uninstall TP3 do I end up with vanilla A and C and TP2's version of B?

In BAIN could I pick and choose to get whatever textures I want from each texture pack?

» Mon May 02, 2011 11:56 pm

But I decide i don't like TP3's version of A, I want TP1's version. If I uninstall TP3 do I end up with vanilla A and C and TP2's version of B?

No. If you uninstall TP3, you keep the same versions of A and C as you had. OBMM keeps track of the fact that they also belong to TP1/2 and therefore don't uninstall them until you also uninstall those mods - but it doesn't reinstall TP1/2's versions of the files, you have to uninstall/reinstall TP1/2 yourself to get that.

In BAIN could I pick and choose to get whatever textures I want from each texture pack?

Not individual file unless its specifically packed to let you choose them, but when you uninstall TP3, BAIN will reinstall the correct A/B from TP1/2 for you.

» Tue May 03, 2011 1:37 am

Ah. Thanks TheNiceOne

» Mon May 02, 2011 11:29 pm

I`m using BAIN and I`m very happy with it. Unfortunately OBMM is still necessary due to the shader edit feature. I wish Wrye Bash will be able to do this one day.

» Tue May 03, 2011 7:37 am

I'm probably one of the very few who prefer to manually install and sort my load order. Its a control thing, I know exactly what is doing what and how. The various mod managing and mod making tools certainly help me know how my mods are interacting and allow me to change that when necessary. I can't do what I do without all these wonderful tools! :wub:

Mods are saved on separate drive in a "mod library" and updated as needed. All mods unarchived in a separate folder before copying to Data, that way I can examine the files and read the Readmes before making a final decision. Load order sorted the old fashioned way by hand. OBMM is used for the two OMODS that I can't live without: DarNified UI and Timeslip's Nighteye Shaders. Wryebash with Boss' Masterlist is used for creating Bashed Patch. TES4Edit is used for conflict checking and general cleaning. If there are conflicts I have various choices: ignore it, change load order, make modifications, or remove the mod. If I find a problem while playing I look for a solution. Many times fixes are available even for mods whose authors have moved on. Chances are someone has already fixed it, if not then it becomes a bug report. Or sometimes its user error in which I fix my booboo and laugh at myself. :lol:

Sure BAIN and OMOD are easier, while my way is harder and time consuming. But I have complete and utter control. I love brain teasers and I have a lot of free time. So my way is not recommended for everyone.

Maybe this little blurb hasn't been that helpful, but I thought perhaps it might be interesting to hear from someone who does things quite a bit differently.

» Mon May 02, 2011 10:23 pm

I too have a full catelog of mods that I keep backed up and ready to rezip into 7zip archives so that when I get an update I lay them into the folder structure and rezip - then port over to BAIN.

Actually one of the very first BAIN packages ever released was Darnified UI -done by Wrye himself and found http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=22170.

BAIN now can install shaders but not merge/edit them. So OBMM still needed for Timeslip's mod.

» Tue May 03, 2011 2:33 am

I hate messy transitions. Perhaps because of my career background, or perhaps because I've always been this way, I believe in careful and circumspect planning and implementation of change. For instance if I were convinced of the need to switch systems for something, I avoid the haphazard way wherever I can. For me, contemplating switching to BAIN means trying to figure out the consequences of different action plans and deciding on the one with the lowest risk for best cost/benefit ratio. This is very quickly done when I already have all the necessary info on how the systems in question operate and what their main differences/conflicts will be.

I find myself wondering things like, for each mod whose management I wish to give over to BAIN, must I uninstall the associated OMOD first? Or... What happens if I uninstall the only OMOD touching certain files, but certain mods managed by BAIN installers/packages rely on those same files? It sounds like I'm being told BAIN will automagically know things are missing on-start and just... fix it. Am I grokking this?

I don't like the idea of managing some things with one tool and some things with another. I understand necessary exceptions like Timeslip's Nighteye and Detailed Terrain, etc., so that's not where I'm going with this post. The thrust is, I am sharing that I would like to better understand the possible nasty details of the switch process. I would love to dig up all this information myself and I know that's my responsibility... but I also know there are a lot of kind souls here who don't mind answering a few questions here and there, saving others from duplicating their effort.

I really appreciate all the contributions to this thread. I do feel like it's very helpful, not only to me but to the number of other people that are considering switching and want to understand what that would entail.