I actually have been thinking for a while about having it so that some of your skills that you were a specialist at could allow you to go over 100 by 25 points so that you have a higher max for just a couple of skills so that in the end your character isn't the uber balanced dead end character. but that was pre announcments, but I think maybe it could be done to attribute mods via racial bonuses.

@bukee, then whats your point, your not contradicting me but your tone is condescending. if you have something to contribute about how attribute mods could be implemented or arranged or whatever feel free to add your peace.

If you had read eitherthe titleor the OP you would realize that I understand that. I disagree with it. I want to think about modding something different.

This thread does not exit to argue the rights/wrongs of Bethesda's decision or to whine about it. Twenty other threads for that. This is about how those with a PoV that differs from Bethesda's might mod the game. It is meant to be a discussion and not an arguement.

Another thought - attributes could be modded in such that certain skills are easier to advance than others. Hmm ... sounds familiar .

I would prefer a mod that put them back to how they were, while keeping the absence of major/minor skill, and just have it so that increasing the governed skills increases how much you can improve attributes, etc...

my concern about modding in attributes back in is who ever makes the mod might want to throw in their own twist on the system and that would be just as bad as the SK vanilla situation.

I think that a good way to implement attributes is like this:

When you select your race, you get a frame of attributes limits and some initial attributes that you could tweak, so in general Orcs would have more strength and less intelligence than Altmers, for instance, but that could be tweaked a bit.

After the players tweak their character's initial attributes, those attributes remain fixed through-out the duration of the game, just like fallout-3, but in rare occasions you could increase them as a reward to a quest or some such.

And those could define the rate of your skill progressions, or the soft-cap over their progression, where it would become harder to progress them, and so on...

You know, I just might try to implement that, and I hope they provide us the tools that I have suggested in http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1181482-loose-your-touch-or-gain-it, as it would make it quite easy to develop such an add-on to character progression formula.

That's pretty much the way I envision it too, though I also toy with the idea of making the established attributes maximums or maybe ranges rather than current, and particularly fixed, values. Intelligence is a bit problematic there, simply because it doesn't actually increase, but I've about come to the conclusion that that's a semantics issue - that the thing defined by the trait called "intelligence" is not in fact "intelligence" as we understand it, but something more akin to intellect. But anyway, just in general, I like the notion of being able to increase attributes - that seems really to be self-evidently possible. However, I believe there should be a relatively fixed range, such that not only racial differences but whatever differences any player might wish to impose (an Orc strong even by Orcish standards or a surprisingly stupid Altmer, for instance) would be possible. So, for instance, working with a scale of 1-100, a default Orc would have a starting strength of 40 and a maximum of 80. If the player chose to spend some starting points to increase his Orc's strength, he might start with 50, giving him a maximum of 90, and he'd still have some points left over to invest in something else. And if the player chose to invest all of his starting points into strength, the Orc would start with 60 and have a maximum of 100, but that would be it - the Orc would be stuck with the default ranges for the rest of the traits. Or possibly even set it up such that points could be deducted from traits and applied to others, though that runs into some balancing issues. Actually, as I think about it, it should definitely be possible to deduct points anyway, just so that someone could play a particularly stupid Altmer or weak Orc - the question then is what to do with those extra points....

Anyway.... increases in those traits could be dealt with in much the same way they have been in past games - toting around heavy armor and holding up a shield and such would increase endurance, swinging a weapon and running for extended periods would increase strength and so on (preferably with a good deal of overlap between things, so that things that legitimately would increase multiple attributes actually do). All of that would just happen in the background. Or not happen, if the character didn't engage in activitities that would logically increase those traits.

It would require that much more careful balancing to get it to work in a game, since the rate of increase would have to fit with the character's development and so on, but I think it would be an interesting way of doing it if it could be done.

Again, just something I've been toying with......

I think I said this already but any one who mods attributes back in have got to stop themselves for putting their own spin on it. it should go basicly in as it was but with out main and minor skills thing so that it will fit in with the flow of SK, other than that I don't think people should toy too much with the balance of the attributes more than what is necessary to compensate for the lack of proper number of skills.

What? You want people to implement the imensely flawed Oblivion or Morrowind attribute system for real?

EDIT: took out the first part wasn't necessary. your off topic, this isn't a thread about discussing the validity of attributes, its about how to put them back in. if you don't want them put back in you don't have to discuss it, but the OP has asked already for people to stay on topic. there are a hundred pro/anti attributes thread, go bash them there.

You have some really good ideas in there.

Well the same goes for attribute haters also, there isn't many constructive or critical post with facts, most of them just start blaming Attribute system almost without reason and don't understood thats not system was bad, but implementation of system there is many ways to have working attributes but they are not used, but now we even don't have such flawed but fundamental base, so thats will be hard work bring attributes back when need to code all calls to hidden mechanic what was previously linked to attributes and was easy manageable in-game and by scripts, create new UI menus (first mods will use messagebox I believe), create scripted spell effects what previously use attributes, I think such tasks can even require Skyrim Script Extender, I doubt thats inbuilt script engine will have all what we need.


Well previously TES games at last have small but actual usage of certain attributes in different skills, for example intelligence was governing skill for security but was not used in calculations instead was used Agility and Luck, alchemy was affected also by intelligence but due to chain alchemy exploit such feature was removed, in Daggerfall intelligence suppose to increases rates of skills based on it as well Daggerfall has different levels for intelligence from 1-9 = vegetable-like to 89+ = genius where 40-49 = about average, having zero in attribute mean dead for character but there was no other consequences besides this, so here is question why not make attributes important in game then?
for example few steps thats makes attributes important
- Reducing but not removing rates of attributes increase, only few levels only for few points
- Making attributes have better or equal to skills effects to outcomes in calculation, before Strength give x0.5 bonus to damage while skills can give x4.0
- Making have attributes above or low average have visible consequences in form advantages&disadvantages for example willpower govern natural magic resistance having willpower lower average will give magic weakness
- adding new ties and checks based on attributes, Morrowind have requirement for example, adding such checks for example Strength can have lockbash and intimidation checks.
- Making one skill be governed more then by one attribute, as well perks can also be affected by attributes for example Strength can affect durability damaging and armor ignoring for maces.
- Making disease and curses be more powerful overtime, so they will be actually something not few red numbers in character statistic, having zero attribute must again mean dead, having damaged attributes will actually give feel of trauma.

If you think such features cannot be achieved with TES system you will be wrong many of features what listed already was implemented by mods, they was possible with old flawed attribute system, now if Skyrim will not provide equal mechanic thats will be really hard task bring such gameplay mechanic back to game, I'm dont say thats will be impossible but will be hard and time consuming work, with attributes we lose handy fundamental easy manageable tools for modeling mechanic of features what was not event introduced or was implemented in flawed way.


Well I have different vision on such situation
Attributes: "Nord warrior stronger naturally then elf mage because of his Strength"
Perks: "Oh cool! Now I can make enemies fall to the ground when I bash them with my shield! but too bad I'm elf mage and cannot bash this Nord so easy he will resist my bash" (bash is default option for shields its even not perk anymore)

Keep attributes static for the most part, have them chosen at the beginning of the game. Have them go from 1 to 100 in increments of 5. Have them so they all cannot be maxed. Have gradual attribute progression through quest rewards/extensive work etc, again without the ability to max them all. Everybody's happy except for the people that apparently couldn't understand a simple game mechanic in the first place.

That's pretty much the way I see it, though the specific ranges and such don't matter that much (or more accurately, would simply depend on math and game mechanics, so can't really be established right off). But yeah - a Khajiit, for instance, should be faster by default than an Orc. Have a way to manipulate the numbers at the beginning, in order to create a faster or slower Khajiit, as desired, have the numbers increase through the course of the game and have some sort of maximum - such that the fastest Khajiit is still faster than the fastest Orc, but a fast Orc is faster than a slow Khajiit, for instance. Tie the increases in to the skills that should legitimately increase them, and do so logically and however that might fall. So security, for instance, would affect agility and intelligence, presuming those attributes exist with those names. Blocking, as another example, would affect agility, speed, strength and endurance, to varying degrees possibly - possibly even, if the technology would support it, depending on the specific actions of the player/character. One who turtles behind a shield would gain more strength and particularly endurance while one who timed blocks would gain more agility and speed. Then use the attributes to derive all the other abillities related to them - carry capacity, lifting limits, movement speed, dodging ability, magic effectiveness, magicka pool and recharge rate, overall stamina, rate of use, rate of recharge...... And best case scenario for all of that, sort of ironically, since it's a thing with which the ranters seem obsessed, would be to represent all those abilities without numbers - those are the things that should be "under the hood." You don't know what your character's encumbrance limit is - you just know that he keeps moving more and more slowly and getting tired more and more quickly. You don't know how much your character can lift - you just try to pick something up and find that he either can or can't. You don't know how much stamina your character has - you can just see as he slows down and reacts more slowly and has to stop to catch his breath more often, until he collapses.

Could be a very nice system, I think.......

@zzar,hu thats not what this discussion is about, and you have post that same qoute to the other similar but different attributes thread without even typing a "this" post. if thats not spam then I don't know what is.

I had this posted on another thread, but that one looks to be going down in flames, and I thought I should probably move it to a better place. Just some ruminations on the overall idea of modding attributes back in:



There are two basic problems I see with modding attributes back in. One is simply getting them to function in the game - hooking them in to the appropriate abilities and such, and having a way to represent them and manipulate them. The other, which I haven't seen mentioned in any of these threads, is overcoming what I'm certain is the real reason that they were removed in the first place - balancing them with skills and perks.

If, for instance, you put a "strength" attribute in the game and have it contribute to encumbrance and melee damage and such, just as it did in past games, then either a character with high strength and weapon skill and damage perks is going to just be that much more overpowered, or the skills and perks are going to have to be downgraded a bit, in which case a character with low strength is going to be gimped.

Somewhat ironically, attributes plus skills and perks could well end up falling prey to the same problem that plagued major/minor skills and specialization in Oblivion - the range between the high end and low end would end up too broad.

To divert a minute, and clarify the unintentional irony there - EVERY purported issue with attributes in Oblivion was actually the fault of the major/minor and specialization leveling system combined with level scaling. NONE of the problems that have been pinned on atrributes were actually caused by the mere existence of those attributes. You didn't have to grind skills because attributes existed. You didn't end up leveling too fast because attributes existed. You didn't have to go out of your way to use skills you wouldn't have used otherwise because attributes existed. You had to do those things because of the major/minor and specialization leveling system and level scaling. If we take the amount of experience you have to gain to increase a non-specialization minor as the baseline, the amount of experience you had to gain to increase a specialization major is 40% of that. 40%. That's it. That means that spec majors increase more than TWICE as fast as non-spec minors. And that means, as many discovered, that if you have a few too many non-combat spec majors and/or a few too many important non-spec minors, you're going to level up too fast and get your ass handed to you by level-scaled opponents who just aren't impressed by your high security and speechcraft skills. So, in order to get around the problems caused by the dramatic difference in rate of increase between majors and minors and spec skills and non-spec skills, players have to go out of their way to use minor skills, or have to grind skills, or run the risk of leveling too fast. The real problem was simply that two variables were used to effect the same thing and the range between the low end and high end was thus too broad.

So - back to attributes in this context. The same fundamental problem exists. As it stands, there will be some base amount of melee damage (for instance) that a character can do. That amount can be increased through skill increases and through perks (and weapon upgrades and such, but that's a separate issue). The game is (hopefully) balanced such that a low level character with poor weapons and poor melee skill can at least barely survive, and a high level character with nice weapons and high skill isn't quite god-like. There's certainly a notable difference between the two, but the range is (again hopefully) set to fit with the game world. If you add attributes to that and make is such that the strength attribute, for instance, also affects weapon damage, then either you have to move everything down, which means that the low level character becomes weaker, or you have to move everything up, which means that the high level character becomes stronger, or you have to spread it all out in the middle, and both happen - the low level character becomes weaker AND the high level character becomes stronger. The only way it can really be done while maintaining the game balance is to change EVERYTHING - to very carefully tailor the effects of attributes and the effects of skills and perks so that the lowest level characters aren't too weak to survive but the highest level characters aren't boringly uber.

And again, I'm certain this is really the reason that Beth eliminated attributes. Just as the problem with having both major/minor and specialization affect rate of skill increase led to too great a difference between the bottom and the top of the scale, having attributes and skills/perks affect abilities, unless carefully balanced, would also lead to too great a difference between the bottom and the top of the scale.

It could probably be done, but it's going to be complicated, even aside from the mechanical issues of just fitting them into the game.

I was suggested to express my idea in this thread, so here it goes

A long time ago (back in Morrowind) I figured out that race don't play much role in TES, except visual representation of you character
Yes we start with different starting attributes, but sooner or later we end up with all stats maxed out at 100p
My idea was making every race with different maximal attributes so that heavily trained bosmer still would be weaker than orsimer who reached attribute cap.

Here are maximal stats every race could get (I was pointed out in other forum, that there is some things wrong with few races, but it could be starting point for mod OR you could simply ignore me :huh: )

Altmer
STR 75
INT 175
WILL 150
AGL 75
SPD 75
END 75
PERS 150

Bosmer
STR 75
INT 100
WILL 100
AGL 175
SPD 100
END 125
PERS 100

Dunmer
STR 150
INT 100
WILL 150
AGL 100
SPD 125
END 75
PERS 75

Orsimer
STR 175
INT 75
WILL 75
AGL 100
SPD 125
END 150
PERS 75

Breton
STR 100
INT 150
WILL 150
AGL 75
SPD 75
END 75
PERS 150

Imperial
STR 100
INT 125
WILL 100
AGL 75
SPD 100
END 100
PERS 175

Nord
STR 150
INT 75
WILL 125
AGL 125
SPD 100
END 125
PERS 75

Redguard
STR 125
INT 100
WILL 75
AGL 125
SPD 150
END 100
PERS 100

Argonian
STR 100
INT 75
WILL 75
AGL 150
SPD 125
END 175
PERS 75

Khajit
STR 75
INT 125
WILL 75
AGL 150
SPD 150
END 100
PERS 100

All races have maximal luck 100 (since I see it as % modifier)
And of course These attributes would work only if they would be fixed and every attribute would matter

Now you can say that I'm an idiot and I can go die under bridge. It doesn't matter since attributes are removed instead of fixing them

actually rave thats been brought up in this thread already :thumbsup: where each race would have a "soft" cap at maximum drawing from how they are doing leveling in game, it would be ridiculously easy to max out ever character, Races increase in attributes differently, and each race has a varied soft cap, soft as in if the player desires it they can still raise those particular attributes above 100.


another thing to consider when modding in Attributes is that the differences from 10-30 strenght should be vastly different in Skyrim than it was in Oblivion and games prior.

The point is having also various hard caps for attributes, because having equal attributes makes no sense

I suspect that there will be many different ideas, however I would prefer that attributes be only slightly mutable with no chance at all of maxing out. For my own character I see speed and agility at 100 because that is who he is. But strength would be 60, willpower 40, intelligence high at around 85, endurance high at 80, and personality at around 60. Luck at around 50. Definitely above average - who wants an average character - but not superhuman. Think NFL cornerback.

+1 for some mod of attributes back in.
Heck, I just got a gaming rig just for the opportunity to mod in attributes. (well Witcher 2 and Skyrim graphics also)

I now am actually more sure that modding in attributes won't be possible with the CK now than just a couple of days ago when I thought it was likly. I wen't back to the OB CS to try playing with attributes and found that it was not possible in any way or form to make new attributes or mess with what attributes already did. my previous belief that attributes would be modable with CK was based on info from an interview that stated attribtues had been in SKindev at one point and I thought that must mean attributes were editable. that doesn't seem likely now, unless the devs are merciful. other wise the only way possible was if some one knew/could mess around with the code of the game or CK itself to allow attributes to be altered. I doubt there will be too many modders waiting in line to do that.