Most PC gamers don't use Windows 10, they're still using Win7.

I played Morrowind for much longer than that on my original Xbox and bought it multiple times (regular version and game of the year version on Xbox and PC). I also recognize I am not the majority of console gamers who played Morrowind on the original Xbox and I doubt must played it for over 100 hours when I probably easily played it for more than 400 hours. Again, most console gamers are not investing that kind of time into one game.

The point is console gaming is built on new AAA releases and short shelf life for games. Every AAA game sees its greatest sales within its first month or two then dies off considerably afterwards. PC has a bit more retention due to sales. Again, the Creation Kit likely won't be out until months after Fallout 4 has already released and who knows how long it will take to get mods on consoles, especially the PS4 which will be last.

Take ACU as a perfect comparison. It had a horrendous launch. A year later Ubisoft has fixed the game and improved it substantially to the point where it's actually a great game now. However, nobody cares because they already played it and moved on. Thus, all that post-launch work and getting it to where it should have been was wasted. Mods coming to consoles is a great thing, but it will be pointless if most console gamers never even have the opportunity to use anything substantial.

I care because the success of modding on consoles could have a huge impact on modding in general for the entire industry. I want mods to grow, thus I want it to be a success on consoles. As it stands, I believe there are a lot of hurdles that could undermine what BGS is attempting to accomplish. Mainly, I don't most console gamers will even have the opportunity to test out decent mods before they move on to new games.

OP is statistically correct, on average. Console games/multiplats online communities for specific releases do TYPICALLY die out faster and those gamers DO move on to the next big thing much faster compared to PC (Examine Steam, PSN, and XBL stats for the last decade or so). It's not even remotely close. Bringing up an isolated case doesn't change the typical average.

Facts are facts. It's not an insult. There isn't anything inherently wrong with that.

I'm not sure how far mods will go on consoles though, FO4 is already dipping below 30 fps from user videos, so any gfx mod or high rez armor is already ruled out. And then you have the question of script editors and R-rated mods. It's going to be rough.

Windows 8 for me, man it was a ***** getting my FO collection to run on it.

I'm not going near Windows 10 till I know my games will all run on it.

Actual console gamers, as in the majority of gamers who buy video games, are largely the "mainstream/casual game players" or whatever you want to call them. Developers/publishers cater specifically to them with AAA titles every single year. More niche and involved experiences have always been on PC as that is a smaller portion of the market. It is always the casual gamer that these businesses are after. That's why publishers/developers are always looking at ways of making their games more accessible, whether F2P, microtransactions, whatever tools they can create to make games easier and more convenient.

This is true. Even if it wasn't, it will take years for developers to actually take advantage of Windows 10 features (PS4 doesn't have it) and DX12 features. That's just how game development works. New hardware and software release and it takes many years before developers catch up. DX11 has been out since at least 2010 and we only now recently started having games released on console that no longer support DX9.

You make some good points but I think it will depend on the replayability of the individual game itself.

I came to Assassin's Creed Unity late and aside of some dumb story beats it was fine.

But as an annualised franchise without even the facility for more than one save file, it hardly encourages replayability.

Bethesda's games on the other hand get replayed.

Sure, people move on to other things, but they come back if the game has reasons to come back.

Like any change or innovation, this will either catch on or it won't.

I anticipate on console that mods will be more curated and more a 'best of' selection than PC but I think it will catch on over time.

Exactly. This isn't a "PC Elitest" bashing "console peasants." This is merely stating the facts that games on consoles have a short shelf life and this has always been the case. This is how sales are driven on the console platform by major publishers. PC is an entirely different beast and publishers market towards it differently.

I'm honestly not surprised to hear the game is dipping below 30fps when it can run at 1080p on both platforms. I expected BGS was making a stretch and probably sacrificing performance to pull off those numbers. Without a doubt HD texture mods are not going to work of any kind. It would just kill console performance entirely. 3rd party mods aren't going to happen as they won't be legal and Microsoft and Sony won't allow them. nvde mods won't happen because of ESRB constraints and Microsoft and Sony won't allow them. The kinds of mods that will be on consoles are going to be severely limited.

Is a casual gamer different than a "serious" gamer?

If so, could you enumerate those differences? I need to find out if I'm a filthy casual gamer, or one of those serious folk. Do I need a special uniform? Is there a newsletter?

You just agreed with me a page ago that the ESRB has no say over user-generated content / mods. So why are there suddenly "ESRB constraints"?

Well yeah, I don't think anyone here was disputing that. I don't expect texture & nvde mods, but I'm hopeful we console players will receive weapon & armor mods and maybe some new locations.

A "casual" gamer is someone who merely sees gaming as a hobby and will play whatever game for a limited amount of time before moving on to something else. Generally, this person will play a game for a month or so before going to the next experience. Unless they are just a diehard fan of the studio or franchise, they will have little reason to continue playing the game for years. If you look at the actual numbers of sales for AAA games on consoles, that is literally how they always play out.

This has nothing to do with the ESRB directly. This has to do with Microsoft, Sony, and most importantly Bethesda not allowing nvde mods. Look at the Steam Workshop as a perfect example. nvde mods of any kind are not allowed. Period. If you want to get nvde mods, you have to go to Nexus Mods or another fan-run modding site for those advlt-oriented mods. Why do you think that is? It's simple. Bethesda wants to control what kind of mods are available and nvde mods go outside the scope of the original rating of the game. Thus, it's not something they want to support. The last thing Bethesda wants is full on six simulations (those mods do exist) appearing on Bethesda.net when that would certainly elicit an "Ao" rating.

Restrictions will be even greater on consoles than they are on Steam. Any mod that likely goes outside the initial game rating will not be allowed and most mods you see will either be cosmetic or probably quest-related.

Well gee, looks like I'm one of those casual gamers.

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You can't say the shelf life of a game is based upon what platform it's played on, because it depends entirely on the game. How many times can you expect someone to play through an 10 to 14 hour game, singleplayer game, which is the average AAA title? There are still fully active online communities on PS3 for games that are half a decade old. Are seriously saying that just because a person plays on PC, they're going automatically going to put hundreds of hours into something like Darksiders, or Bioshock, or Deadspace? No. They'll play it for what it's worth and move on too.

And to give you an example, Grand Turismo 5 is considered one of the most difficult platinum trophies to get among PS3 games, requiring a minimum of 600 hours to do so. Yet, over 4000 people did so, making it one of the highest number of achieved platinum trophies ever. Again, it depends on the game. Not the platform.

You also mentioned micro transactions, and I'd just like to remind you that Steam is practically the leader in micro transaction in gaming.

Hey, you're the one that said "ESRB restrictions".

But otherwise I agree with you - Bethesda doesn't want to support content that could even potentially put their game rating at risk, even if the ESRB doesn't include user-generated content / mods in their rating decisions.

It's less about PC gamers investing hundreds of hours into "Darksiders, or Bioshock, or Deadspace," and more so PC gamers are still buying those games years later due to Steam sales where those games are receiving zero revenue on consoles. Part of it is because of new console hardware. Part of it is that PC is unique in being able to revive old games and allow them to sell again. Again, longevity to make money on PC is just greater than consoles and has been for a long time.

My point including microtransactions was to suggest that developers/publishers are trying to figure out ways of making games more casual. Yes, microtransactions have infected PC as well, but it's with the intent of always expanding the consumer base and appealing to more gamers. Since the largest gaming base is on consoles, that is the market publishers/developers are almost always appealing to the most.

I merely meant Bethesda would be conscious of that rating and wouldn't want user generated content placing it into question.

Even if the ESRB doesn't include modding as a decision for their ratings currently, there's no reason they couldn't set a precedent for it in the future. Either way, it's not something BGS is going to want to test the waters on. They've always been rather conservative when it comes to dealing with more mature/advlt content. They aren't BioWare, CDPR, or Rockstar, so they will likely be rather draconian with what mods they allow and which ones they won't.

You really haven't walked into EB Games or Gamestop much have you? Those older games still get bought up all the time, and for the same reason that older games on Steam are bought: They drop in price. Console games just drop in a steady decline, while PC games do it sporadically with sales, so it takes longer to get to that point. But it does happen. I know. I'm a former EB Games employee.

And I'm not sure what you mean by "infected." I'm pretty sure PC gaming has only itself to blame for the current micro transaction boom, rather than blaming an attempt to appease console gamers. I highly doubt any console gamer has ever said "Hey did you hear about that game CS:GO? We can pay two bucks for a key that lets us get a random skin. We Should Totally Play That!" Yeah. No.

OP, its a flawed premise. Your central argument hinges on a hypothetical you've offered no backing evidence for.

You would first need to show conclusively that Bethesda games have less longetivity on consoles than PC. Until then there's nothing to debate.

The main argument here is that console players play games because of their novelty. I am a bit skeptical about this claim. BGS games aren't games that you haste through. You can for sure and even get fun out of it and I am pretty sure many people will do it. Still if you do this you miss a ton of content, a ton if you follow the questmarker only and look to finish the mainquest as fast as possible.

It takes time to play through the whole content and in this time is the point reached where mods come out. I don't think this is different on console or PC.

Also mods reach a point in development where a modded game gives you really a complete new experience (FWE for FO3 i.e. and yes you don't need script extenders todo something like that).

I am sure it won't be the big game changer for Bethesda. The majority of players (regardless if PC or Console) is unpatient and soon on to the next big thing but still it will enhance the shelflife about the same for the console versions as it did for PCs.

edit: Not fair when a moderator explains it shorter and more detailed while you are still typing

DLC brings console players back in droves anyway.

I'm a console gamer, and I've sunk hundreds-thousands of hours into FO3, F NV and Skyrim, I'm on my 4th playthrough of The Witcher 3 because it's just that good.

Now I can't speak for all console gamers and neither can you, so stop trying, the games longevity on any platform is based on who is playing the game, not "console gamers don't have patience"

They play for as long as the game keeps them occupied, Sure A LOT of the purchases of FO4 is going to be 'hype train console gamers' but there's still a dedicated fan base on consoles too, they will roleplay within the game and not just rush the story and put the game down.

Patience also has nothing to do with Playing FO4 this month and then jumping to Just cause 3 or Rainbow six, that's called preference or perhaps they just want to play those games as well, what's wrong with that?

BGS aren't trying to change the game with moda, they're simply offering them man.

Maybe change your attitude toward us console peasants, you'll seem like less of a ass.

I'm sure there are some differences in the demographics between pc gamers and console gamers. But you need to factor in these differences before you make assumptions based on platform.

For example, console gamers may be younger. So comparing time spend on a Bethesda game isnt just between two platforms anymore, but also between two age demographics.

When accounting for these differences i don't think it's that much of a fact that console gamers spend less time playing a game like Fallout. And if they do, then maybe its because of a lack of mod support.

I know the reason i kept revisiting Skyrim over the past few years, and putting in the time that i did, was due to mods. If there was no modding at all for Skyrim i certainly would've put in less time and probably not gone back to it as often as i did.

So i hope modding is as extensive as possible for the consoles. Which would be in the best interest of the players and Bethesda, who still has Skyrim topping sales on Steam every time it goes on a sale.

Sorry mate, but your point is based on pure assumption that 'console' gamers have such characteristics. Hardly. It of course depends on the type of game much more as opposed to the platform. Games like MGS, Uncharted etc of course tend to have a shorter shelf life as opposed to online oriented games like GTA or CoD. GTAIV's online community lasted very, very long. People played Skyrim and Fallout continuously till now on consoles even, and some youtubers like ManyATrueNerd use consoles to play Fallout.

As for the censoring of mods though, that I can't deny will definitey hinder the potential opportunity and impact that modding on consoles can provide. But I'm willing to bet modding will still be a significant impact for the console community nonetheless, or at least it is the first much needed step taken by a developer at least to bring it to consoles.

Most people play a game just once.

This is also true for pc gamers, steam achievement statistic for Skyrim shows this. Even if its giant errors in this statistic, 1/3 of my achievements are not registered for one.

How long people will play an single player game mostly depen how open the gameplay is, how much weird stuff you can do.

I believe game modding to consoles will be in small steps -I wouldn't expect a 'big loud bang' of sorts. It will take it's time as it should, in my opinion.

As for PC, it will always be pushing gaming forward -that's a fact. At the same time, consoles are coming closer and closer to what a PC is. Mind you, the console audience has changed between the release of the first Xbox/PS and the current one. They want more functionality and they're becoming increasingly ready for it.

The rest, remains to be seen.