You badly mistake what the Creation Kit is. It is an internal development tool used for making the game that Bethesda kindly lets us use.

They don't spend a penny developing it for the user base. Any bugs in it when they throw it over the wall - stay bugs forever. It is not maintained.

Any costs associated with the Creation Kit are development costs associated with making the game.

Mods also have not cost Bethesda a penny in lost revenue. They drive interest in the game, and help develop a loyal community.

To each their own.

I used to get into the us against them debates but internet arguments are futile. If you enjoy replaying a game on a console, more power to you. Enjoy the replayability of games on the PC thanks to mods, great.

I still play Master Of Orion 2, bought that nearly 20 years ago.

WAR ,what is it good for? Never Changing Absolutely nothing.

i basically don't think it's about the platform how long you play a game, it's about how long that game can motivate you.

that's just the same on pc, console or any other platform, and that's where mods come in.

and, as a modder, i still see countless people still playing, like, skyrim, 4y after it came out, and that's _players_, not modders.

so, if we have a ratio of, say, 20% of the peak player counts still playing on pc, i just don't see why this should be any different on a console.

as long as the game has something that makes people want to play it, it will be played. and that's just what us modders try to deliver.

That's like me and Warcraft 2. "Stop poking me!" "Join the army they said". "Who ya wanna kill?"

By the Nine I love that game.

You don't understand how the process works then. BGS isn't just giving you the tools they used. They have to overhaul them in a way that makes sense for the public, which is why it takes many months to release the kit after the release of the game. Time is money (these developers are being paid after all), so yes it takes a lot of time and effort to provide the tools to the public for people to make mods. If making mod tools for the community didn't cost developers anything and was easy, you better believe almost every developer would do it. Barely any do because it's an investment they aren't willing to make. Believe it or not, but it's very hard to create mod kits.

Bethesda definitely disagrees that mods do not cost revenue. Oblivion originally released with a "T" rating by the ESRB before it was changed shortly after release to an "M" rating. The reason Bethesda argued for the heightened rating was because mods allowed players to create advlt-oriented content that forced the ESRB to change the rating, costing Bethesda millions in revenue. Mods definitely impact sales in a multitude of ways.

are you bruce bosmer or bosmer goes to hollywood?

I laughed at the no retention on games for consoles. That is just simply incorrect. Then you go into using Assassin's Creed and Call of Duty as examples. First, those are terrible examples, most people who are really into COD and Assassin's Creed aren't RPG gamers, although there is some intersecting obviously, you are describing two different type of gamers for the most part. I think the worst part though is the two games you chose have a new game in their series every year, so of course those gamers and those games have less retention thats common sense. Now what you didn't compare too are console games like Grand Theft Auto, Morrowind and Skyrim, or Halo. People still play older games on consoles, how many people still download Final Fantasy 7 on their PS2, PS3 or PS4? I could name a few other games but I am sure you get the point. Unfortunately like other posters have mentioned your whole post is based on assumptions, not actual information. There is reason companies have been producing remasters and HD editions of every game out there....because retention is high (and nostalgia) among games that aren't yearly shooters, exploration games.

Even without these facts, there are always gamers who go against the grain, I still play NBA 2k14 and Madden 25 on my PS3. Hell, I still play Assassin's Creed Black Flag on my PS3 as well. I have a friend who even still breaks out the PS1 and plays Blitz on it....

Modding is not about business. It is about keeping the fans

The Creation Kit does cost Bethesda money to make since what we get is a far more user-friendly version of what the devs use. Otherwise, the Creation Kit would be available in November instead of next year. While it hasn't cost Bethesda lost revenue, it is an expense that drives interest in the game and help develop a loyal community. After all, there are a ton of players that have played Bethesda's other game and some of it might be due to Fallout.

While that's a nice sentiment, it's just not true. Modding is a business (one that has benefitted BGS greatly on PC). One Bethesda attempted to monetize with Valve on Steam and failed. I highly doubt they will put paid mods to rest as they implied they would attempt another system in the future. Consoles could be a precursor to that depending on how mods perform on consoles. Either way, making mod tools costs BGS money and you better believe they are expecting a return on that investment.

Bethesda provides one tool; the Creation Kit. That includes the Papyrus compiler. They distribute nothing that requires a third party license. Things like NifScope, TES5Edit, ModOrganizer, and the interface to Dx 3D and Blender are all user generated.

I would love to see you demonstrate any difference between the Skyrim Creation Kit released by Bethesda and the one they used internally. Including bugs.

Bethesda titles seem to capture consumer interest for a much longer time period than most games, for all platforms. It's not the kind of game you can "beat" and move on. There are a lot of people (both console and PC) who play these games for hundreds of hours and never finish the main quest.

I played Skyrim for three years on console, and the only reason I stopped was because I got a PC capable of running it. I would play it for a few months, play other games for a few months, then come back to it for a few months. You're right about most games not having retention when it comes to consoles, but Bethesda games certainly do.

I don't think you understand. Let me provide an example. Consider having all the ingredients to make a dinner, but it hasn't been prepared (those are the internal tools from the studio). What BGS does (the chef) is they prepare those ingredients and cultivate them into an actual meal that can be served (creation kit). That takes time, effort, and money to overhaul their internal tools into something the general public can use. I'm not even talking about 3rd party software/middleware or anything BGS licenses such as speedtree or havoc. I'm referring specifically to BGS' own game engine and the tools they use to create content in their game.

?

You are stating, quite clearly, that Bethesda does not use an integrated development environment for building their games. What we know as the Creation Kit.

I don't agree with you, but short a statement by Bethesda or one of their developers, it is just speculation.

You don't know what your talking about. The Creation kit is the same internally as it is externally minus the office networking, and proprietary software hooks like importers and exporters. They tell us this pretty much verbatim in every making of documentary since Oblivion.

Stopped reading at "console games get stale"
1) mods will help in keeping that from happening.
2) this game is for PC and console. Will the PC version get stale? If yes, then you should say "games get stale" If no, please explain how the main difference between the 2 (mods) being moot now means only the console version will get stale.
3) Because I haven't been playing F3 on console for 8 years. ?

I thought the same thing and I was looking for it to post on here lol I wasn't sure.

If you were actually receiving BGS' tools unadvlterated as they had used them to develop the game, why does it take them several months to release the kit? If they literally are doing nothing, they'd release the creation kit immediately at launch for modder consumption. There is nothing to speculate about.

The post above applies to you as well. I have stated that they make their tools user-friendly. They overhaul it in a way that can make it accessible for the general public. If you were actually getting their tools, you wouldn't have to wait months for the release of the kit.

we're not short of a statement, it has been clearly stated by them for about a zillion times that the respective kits are exactly what they use themselves.

The funniest part is how he states this stuff so authoritatively.

Come the 10th, what do you think Bethesda is doing? Working on the Creation Kit?

A lot better guess on my part is that that will be in Crisis Overtime, fixing bugs as fast as they come in. No one is taking vacation.

Once they can get their heads above water, they will give us the Creation kit. I expect early in January. That is only about six weeks after release.

So how has modding generated a single cent for Bethesda? It costs money to create the Creation Kit and all of the mods are created by the fans for the fans. So modding is a net loss for Bethesda. Paid mods are too controversial for Bethesda to see any value from it. Besides, if paid mods existed, then the creators of the mods will see most of the revenue with Bethesda taking a 5 to 10% cut. That is the only way for modding to become a business and it is not going to happen soon since players rather have mods as a labor of love than as something that is strictly for profit.