I remember when I played oblivion or fallout, when I was given choice to either do something evil or nice, I always tend to play nice. not that I don't want to play evil, but because the game discourages evil behavior, such as by making you a public enemy. once you become a public enemy it'll be very difficult for you to continue the game. so I think the game should equally allow good and evil behaviors and balance the impact of each. In other words, more gray areas. For example, even though you have killed innocent people and normal townsfolks hate you, you can better make friends with bandits, and at the same time you can avoid trouble with the guards by bribing them.

edit: i think if TES devs claim that the game is a sandbox, then they should allow moral freedom like in a real sandbox.

Yes please. I think this game will have this for the most part. They already said that you will be building longterm relationships with people so if you break into a friend's house at night he may offer you a bed for the night instead of calling the guards. The only thing that really made me mad was that all guards instantly knew when I accidentally shot a horse I didn't own when I was in the wilderness and they all came after me ready to make me pay, apparently with my blood. Then again I should have paid the fine.

Also, what was with the nine divines not healing me because I am a criminal? Some of them should at least be neutral, they were kind of unfair.

yea there's no reason all 9 divines will refuse to help you

Well, I don't think that bandits will suddenly want to become your friend because you killed some people. Evil is not one big happy family.

Doing evil deeds (and getting caught) should not make every guard in the entire world hostile. It would be nice if there was at least one town that was "a wretched hive of scum and villainy" where corruption was rampant, and being a hero was frowned upon to some extent (except maybe by a select few individuals).

I agree. Killing a random sheep or stealing a worthless spoon will set the guards after you. There should be an equalizer installed to encourage bad (and good) behavior. I remember when I first started playing Oblivion (I was about 11-12) and I always used Frost Touch. So one day I went to the church - praying. Suddenly I tap the spell button by mistake. No guards where present and I just ended up killing everyone. After killing everyone I thought: "Nobody could have seen me!" But then a guard shows up and I don't have the money to pay myself out. Gahd. *Resist Arrest*.

I've been bad ever since, do NOT make me stop.

for me I feel like oblivion is somewhat lack of twists. there are a lot of small missions where you were just playing superhero and purely good. There should be more quests where after you complete it you realize what you had done was bad (or was actually good). like the dark brotherhood missions, those were very twisty.

Your second paragraph contradicts the first one.

It doesn't. Since you didn't really explain how it does, I'll try to elaborate.

The first sentence of the 2nd paragraph is unrelated to the first. It's just saying stuff about guards, not about evildoers.

The second sentence describes a town where people partake in vice, are corrupt as hell, money is their god, they will betray anyone, etc, etc. This town is not "one big happy family", it's full of people who are always looking out for themselves, and when a truly selfless person appears they are even more untrustworthy. If an "evil" character talked to NPC Betrayer Bob, Bob would think that this person could be of use, and possible would try to betray PC after getting the quest done. If a "good" character talk to Bob, Bob would think that the person was being obsequious and luring him into a trap- he wouldn't want to take the chance.

Basically, it describes a messed up town where people are so lacking in decency, that it's easier to trust someone that's blatantly untrustworthy than someone that's apparently trustworthy.

I really hate games that do that. If I go on a quest and do something good (or bad), the game shouldn't twist my deeds and tell me I did something bad (or good). Especially if there was no forewarning.

Its contradictory because a town of "evil people" is as much a big happy family as what you were criticizing. Its just unreal.

Guards can't arrest you if they're all dead and posed in a humorous manner


:ninja:

Mos Eisley, and to an extent possibly the slums of Detroit and Los Angeles disagree.

Rome was rampant with corruption (around the 14th century, which the Roman gods had fallen out of favor, and Christianity was mainstream). Dante's Inferno mentioned some famous figures in his time having a special place in hell (including Pope Boniface). One of the stories in Boccaccio's Decameron casually mentions (or maybe even just assumes) that Rome is an extremely corrupt city.

Uneasy truce is not the same as a big happy family. The dragons in Skyrim have a big happy family (basically, they all just do Alduin's bidding)- a bunch of conniving merchants and politicians trying to make grabs at power are hardly a happy family. Think of a royal family where the younger children are encouraged to try team up and try to assassinate the crown prince. You're basically always in danger if you have anything someone else wants, and if you try to be a good person, you'll probably be killed off or run out quick. There is no "big happy family" unless there is trust. A town full of corruption and deceit is not just "super evil, and will kill us all" like the dragons are.

However, joining or starting your own bandit faction should be an option for "criminal" characters that aren't Noble Thieves or Subtle Assassins... What bandit group wouldn't want someone as awesome as the Dragonborn? They'd know the lawful places don't want him, so in exchange for his awesomeness, they'd be able to supply him with a sense of community of like-minded individuals, and assorted resources for having a "safe" place.

Honor among your own bandit gang and such stuff.

After all, where's the fun in turning the Orphanage into a barbecue and bonfire if you don't have friends?

Mount and Blade sure is fun, ain't it?

I honestly enjoy the whole "solo badass" thing the TES series has going. No reason why you couldn't recruit a bunch of thugs, though. I heard that Todd (?) said they were even playing around with any NPC being recruitable at one point. Although, max limit is probably low-ish. A low-ish max limit is good, though, as it gives a plausible explanation as to why these scumbags are loyal to you (easy to frighten or befriend a small group than a large one).

Eh, as long as I don't feel like everything is cut-and-dry "good" and "evil."

For example, I hated the "bad" ending to Fallout 3. So much. It ruined the game for me. The narrator sat there and criticized my character, saying I "succumbed to the vices of greed and blah blah blah." Screw that. I did what I wanted, I didn't "succumb" to jack. Sure, my character was not the nicest, but I did a lot of kind and selfless things too. I don't know, it's irritating. Don't tell me my character is evil. Who are you to judge, narrator? Good and evil are entirely subjective and everyone's morality is different.

"Fame" and "infamy" were much better terms that I'm glad Oblivion used.

...What were we talking about?

Oh, moral impact of behavior. Yeah, I guess. If I do something that negatively impacts a town, they should react more negatively toward me. I just don't want this general aura of "YOU'RE AN EVIL CHARACTER" hanging over me. I don't play "good" characters and I don't play "evil" characters because those people do not exist in the real world. I play as a three dimensional being.

Faction system rather than good/evil system is the most obvious solution. If you do a bad thing to X, Y may be wary of you, but you can still win them over without having to win over X as well. the problem with the faction system is that it doesn't detect people who are betrayers or deceivers. The way to get around this is to make new factions for them.

One thing is a city full of corruption, another thing is an "evil city" where people actually applaud you going on a killing spree. Please...

I was thinking more of having a bandit gang as able to replace some of the neccessary features of the towns you like to ransack, not as a "Mini army to command".
All sorts of skillsets can come into play amongst the individual bandits as their personalities emerge.

I hope Radiant World can dynamically flesh out individual NPCs as you interact with them more, drawing from the list of available voice-acted lines. So, most NPCs would be "Generic Character #XXXXX" as far as you know, and as far as the game engine cares. But when you start interacting with them more regularly, they start developing distinct personalities from a list of mix'n'match "Personality Packages". So, Shroedinger's NPCs! They are both fully developed characters and Generic Scenery NPCs at the same time until you talk to them.

Yeah, and that's pretty much exactly what Oblivion did.

I do believe that it's not wrong for the game to acknowledge that your character has been better or worse for the game's world. The problem I'm seeing with the complaint about the "Bad Ending" of Fallout 3 is it tries making too many assumptions about a character. I think actions should speak for themselves. "Yes, you be a hero and saved the day, but the town of (Place you decided to butcher) will always curse your name, and the suffering you've wrought.

I feel actions are inherently good and evil. Motive, though, is what's subjective.

Don't fool yourself about the Radiant Story. It's basically just random generation by another name. Yes, it's a bit different, but seems very similar. We wouldn't want you to hope for extremely in-depth and random, characters only to be annoyed by time you find the third one with the "my father died in an unfortunate smelting accident" backstory. Plus, voice-overs would kind of make this a pain...

The good news is that Bethesda's games aren't really focused on the storyline or characters. It's the world and exploration that grabs most people. If there are good, complex, randomly generated dungeons with puzzles, that's some true-to-TES gameplay you can believe in.



I was talking about Fallout (1, 2, New Vegas). Didn't know Oblivion did that- thought the guards all kinda just tried to kill you.

Well, yeah, they did, but that's because the Empire is much more organized, so if you were caught committing a crime by an Imperial guard in one of the cities, all the other city guards knew about it, but still, that's part of the faction thing. The faction of Imperial Guards would persecute you. The guilds wouldn't care though unless the initial crime was against them. If I did something negative toward the Thieves Guild, their dispositions would be lowered and I'd be kicked out of the guild, but then, say, the Mages Guild wouldn't care at all, nor would anyone else not part of the Thieves Guild.

But I even changed my helmet. How did they know it was me who stole that woman's cutlery? Why did they bother sending out a message to every one of their cities that there was a cutlery thief on the loose? Why don't the focus their attentions on getting rid of that thieves guild instead? D:

What I'm trying to say is that Skyrim need more factions than Oblivion. Like, for example, "town guard" for each town that handle small matters like theft and assault and also "imperial guard" that handle mass murders, or stealing important stuff. The imperial guard would be spread out over the world, and its agents would try to ID you (10% chance for crappy ones, up to 90% for high ranking people who saw you commit the crime), and then would try to detain or murder you. Seems more plausible than "This guy stole a spoon- send out the carrier pigeons! Inform the guards!".

Morallity; evil and good is simply perspective that is all.