Hey everyone, just have another topic I'd like to discuss with you all.

I absolutely loved Oblivion. It was easily my favorite game of all time thanks to the limitless hours I've poured into that game. I've invested over 1000 hours into the world of Cyrodil and I still haven't seen and done everything yet. I know that's a controversial viewpoint as many people had some problems with Oblivion. I too had some problems with the game in hindsight, and regardless of how little they affected my overall love for the game, I still think these are things worth bringing up for Skyrim.

First of all, I love the fact that Oblivion let you do anything you wanted, when you wanted. This however, comes with a price. I can become the Champion of the Arena and the Fighters Guild will still think I'm a lowlife nobody when I first join the guild. I could become the listener of the Dark Brotherhood and the Mage's Guild won't even bat an eye at letting me join their guild. I could help Martin save the world, but If I didn't join the Thieves Guild before I finished the main quest line, I still have to prove myself worthy to join. Now, there are of course ways around this, such as "When I was asked to kill the defending Champion of the Arena in cold blood, I lost control. I violently murdered him in cold blood and I loved it... Thus the Dark Brotherhood came searching for me, even though I'd been a great person up until that point". Some however, cannot be remedied so easily.

That brings me to Skyrim. I don't know what Bethesda is planning, but I just hope they have put some thought into how people in the world will perceive you based on your previous affiliations and actions. I know they've said that Radiant Story will change the way people approach you based on how you've been leveling your character, but wouldn't it be amazing if they also recognized how moral your actions have been? Not just in a single city either. News travels of your deeds, and everyone will know that you are the Master of the Fighters guild. It would greatly add to the immersion factor.

This also goes both ways however. If I killed a person in their house, no one should no about it if no one saw me. If I was caught in someone's house with the owner dead, and that person runs and tells the guards, that should affect how people view me. However, If I also kill the person who found me before he gets a chance to tell anyone, then no one should be affected by my actions. I don't like how, no matter who saw you do something in Oblivion, you either gained fame or infamy. It simply isn't a very realistic system. Cause if I do the Thieves Guild and the Mages Guild, all the while gaining both fame and infamy... how are people going to react? Based on what you have more of? So they simply forget I stole their priceless valuables? Then again, if no one every saw me steal anything because I am such a great thief, then why should I mystically gain infamy? Same with assassinating people for the Dark Brotherhood.

I'm not saying that Skyrim needs to adopt Fallout's karma system, because even that is pretty ridiculous. If I steal something an no one notices, I shouldn't be punished. I should be rewarded with anonymity. I just wish that it didn't feel like I had to work the system if I wanted to do everything, and it was a bit more viable to come up with stories for yourself. Why did I join the Dark Brotherhood after working my way up the Mage's Guild latter? I want to be able to answer this without just using the Knights of the Nine to clear away my infamy.

I hope I'm getting my ideas across clearly and I don't sound like I'm rambling or asking for far too much. I don't expect every NPC to react to me based on every single thing I've done. I just want it to be a little more plausible in Skyrim. If I'm the Champion of the Arena, I want some respect from the Fighters Guild regardless of just joining them. Perhaps implement a reputation system. Example: "I am now the Champion of the Arena and I want to join the Fighters Guild. When I get there I am recognized as the Champion and told about how impressive my exploits are. Thus I'm rewarded by being initiated higher into the ranks than if I was never the Champion." A system where something changed based on what you've already done. Especially if the two things relate to each other. Another example: "I just became the leader of the Thieves Guild and I want to join the Dark Brotherhood. Well instead of having to go through a test to join the Brotherhood, they recognize me as a master thief and immediately let me start with the first assassination contract because my skills at being stealthy are recognized."

I don't want this to sound unfathomable, but just something along these lines would go so far towards making this game absolutely amazing. Even if it's just the dialogue that changes... anything is better than nothing.

Thank you for taking the time to read this and please, feel free to comment or add anything below!

It would be more realistic if they somehow recognized ones achievements but I don't think that they will really recognize you in this world due to the fact that the don't really take pictures or have tvs

I'm not sure I understand what you mean? Oh, like, they don't have news stations or exact photos to place on wanted signs?

That's true, but they have couriers and magic. Maybe implement a system to were it will take a few days for the information to spread, and if you're adamant about no one hearing of your actions, you can actually hunt and kill the courier before he reaches his destination. That's probably asking for too much, but It really breaks the immersion when no one has heard that you are the Champion of the Arena outside of the imperial city. They have word of mouth and letters. The information would eventually spread. I just don't like being treated like a rookie in the Fighters Guild when I've obviously proven myself a great fighter in the Arena.

While I found your Poll to be too rambling and unclear, I found your sentiments and ideas to be of great value and cleverness. Thus I am in awe that such a smart person could have spent so little time on the wording for the Poll that goes with the description below it. If you are going to make a Poll and then write the description, I think you should then go back up and write the poll to better match your great description so that it makes sense.

I am not criticising you, I am saying you did very well in one aspect and surprised me by not living up to that in the other one. I hope you can fix it, so I am not going to vote yet until you do.

That aside, let me begin my own observations:

I whole-heartedly support your observations and I have the same feeling. There should be a sort of neural net connectivity for inter-related skills and accomplishments ! That's awesome. Then, your work in one area can branch out to impact the requirements needed for the other areas so that you can be more effecient with how your time is spent realizing your character's advancement. Why SHOULDN'T some of the things you accomplish have a positive or negative impact on how you grow your character when introduced to new areas in the game you haven't been witness to, but which your unique skill sets might easily fall into?

If a group of fighters saw you kill a dragon, why should they approach you and say "Hey, you look like a good fighter, why don't you join the Fighter's Guild at level one and lick my boots for a few months until I think you're strong enough to go kill a few wolves by yourself, and then I might promote you?" That's absurd! Funny, but absurd. Better is they see you kill the dragon, their mouths drop open, they ask you join the Fighter's Guild as a Captain with the immediate duties, requirements, and penalties (higher dues) right out of the gate. And you don't get quest number 1. You get the Captain's quests, starting at level 10.

But then, if no one sees you kill the dragon, by your own admission above, then of course you wouldn't get that kind of an introduction then, either. So you'd have to hope for just such a battle near town, where people can witness you killing the dragon for them. Then... oh yeah baby! Who's da man!

Good idea!

Thank you for the observation, and you're absolutely right. I even baffled myself at how stumped I was trying to explain my thoughts on the poll. I tried revising the poll question to better get my ideas across. I hope it conveys my thoughts well enough, but it's very difficult trying to explain my sentiments without showing a few examples first.

Also, thanks for the feedback on the topic. I think you are completely on the same page as me, and you expanded upon my thoughts even further!

Nothing more I can say here except yes.

This would add a whole other layer of immersion to the game.

I like the idea of the fighters guild recognizing your prowess and letting you start at an appropriate rank. However, I don't really want half the quests gone if I happen to kill a dragon or two before I join the guilds.

Yeah, I like this idea ,also it would be cool if for example you saved a town in Skyrim from a dragon, as an example I'll use whiterun you visit whiterun and a dragon attacks . You save the town and maybe all the merchants in that town give you a discount or the Leader/ Count/ Countess/ King of said town would give you a reward.

That could easily be fixed, if u join as the captain you'll get the list of contracts(quests) an you can either do all of them yourself or as ur captain assign them to who u see fit, it would be cool as well if u sent the rookie to do a big job and failed and got himself killed then u would be held responsible for sending the wrong person to do the job and bAsically being ur fault that person died. And maybe being taken off as captain as punishment until u prove yourself responsible enough to be captain again? Lol thAt would be cool

Just got another idea guys, what about if you bought a house in a city then the more times you sleep in said city the residents of the city trust you more, or if you shop at a particular shop regularly eventually the shopkeeper will see that you are a regular and are good business and will provide you with a discount

Yeah that's great idea , something that used to really get to me is the merchants in chorol, well everywhere really even though I've been there 100 times they still say NICE TO MEET YOU! And you're like ... Reeallyy?

This would be a sweet idea..
Also, this should apply to crimes, etc.

Something like that already happens with Oblivion. Large transactions (ie, selling/buying stuff worth a lot of money) raise the merchant's disposition toward you, which allows you to haggle for better deals.

Yeah , but that depends on your mercantile I mean this doesn't depend on haggling affecting it it is just say you visit a few times in a week and bring high-quality goods they like you more as in the disposition will depend on say, an enchanted weapon's hits left or a piece of apparel or armanent depending on it's quality will change how they see you and whether or not they give a discount

I actualy like the seperate Fame and Infamy scores, as I feel they represent who society sees you, for example a warrior who fights for good, but is brutal and ruthless with his oponents would have both high fame and medium to high infamy.

Although he helps the little guys people will be a bit wary as the character seems wild and dangerous.


Having said that, I feel that Fame and Infamy should only grow when your deeds are witnessed, or if you prove you were involved (eg: cut a trolls head off as proof you killed it ect.)

If no one witnesses your heroic or nasty deeds (or if that witness is quickly dispatched) then it shouldn't affect your status.

id love to see something like that, and i hope it would make low lvl, intelligent, enemies fear me

like some poor bandit wielding a half broken club would attack a repeated dragonslayer

Yes, I'm looking for recognition (or lack of due to carefulness), as well as the choice to HAVE meaningful choices.

However, can we have both? Personally, I'm not really seeing it. I mean, I can kind of see the possibility of recognition, I just don't for impactful Morality. *shrugs* I don't know. One can hope I suppose. :wavey:

Yes, of the two, I would prefer a recognition system over a morality system. It would be nice however, if the two could be combined. As in, if you are consistently getting caught murdering and stealing, Guilds and NPCs will recognize that as a trait of yours. If you are consistently saving towns and stopping bandits from robbing people, you will be recognized as such. Thus, there's no "technical" morality system, and it would be easier to program because the two ideas go hand and hand with each other.

Again, like I said in the original post, this goes both ways. If you are never seen doing something, no one will have any sort of disposition towards you. So if you are consistently saying towns but everyone in that town died... well no one will ever hear it was you who did it. Also, if you are consistently murdering people, and you are skilled enough to never get caught, no one should no it was you.

The only thing that I'm really, really hoping they implement for sure, is for every NPC that makes sense, will know you're accomplishments in a Guild. Take the Champion of the Arena/Fighters Guild example I gave. Even if they don't reward you for already proving you are a great warrior, lets at least see different dialogue. Instead of "Who are you maggot? You want to join up? Fine, sign this paper and get to work." you see "By Asura, by Asura, by Asura! You're the Champion of the Arena! We'd be honored if you join us!". That simple change would go a long way in keeping the immersion of the world intact.

This also works both ways again. If you are working for the Dark Brotherhood or the Thieves Guild and you are consistently never caught on the job, why would a magical infamy meter start filling up. They're not very good Guilds if they can't keep your exploits with them a secret. However, with those two, and perhaps other NPCs with similar interests (An NPC that needs you to kill someone or steal something, but not necessarily for a guild), you should be able to tell them that you are a master in the Thieves Guild or the Dark Brotherhood. That way they trust your abilities quicker and are willing to give you more jobs without needing to prove yourself.

Again, it doesn't have to affect the gameplay in any way other than dialogue differences. More might be interesting but the dialogue alone would make the world so much more immersive and detailed. I just don't see how the same fame/infamy system won't be disappointing when Radiant Story is obviously capable of having NPCs recognize how you are playing the game from a leveling standpoint. If they know that I've been playing as a mage, why wouldn't they know that I'm also the Archmage of the Mage's Guild? Or if I'm playing as a thief/assassin, if I'm good at it, why can't I stay anonymous in the towns as a reward for never getting caught? Does it really make sense that by doing only the Thieves Guild and the Dark Brotherhood, that all of the sudden everyone will treat you like trash? How do they know I murdered their uncle in his sleep? They weren't there.

Just some things to think about. Thanks everyone for all the feedback so far!

I'd like something like this, but stay clear of the whole 'So your the hero of Kvatch!' problem. It got tiring when people said that constantly when you met them and you could complete that quest so quickly that you'd barely started and already you were hailed as a hero wherever you went.

I have a question about this system though , ok here it is : Blacksmith in town gets robbed you manage to kill theif before they escape shop, blacksmith then sees said deed but if killed instantly would the word not get spread . Sorry I know that didn't make much sense it was hard to put into words but was just curious.

I like your opinions, however the true test of this is not.

I killed someone in a house no one saw me, there should be no consequence.

Imo the test would be, no one saw me so I don't go to jail but......
The guards become more suspicious, follow me around, warn me to leave town.
Relatives start to seek revenge, locals refuse to serve me.

Why.. choice and consequence an rpg may not be reality, however those that play them do like certain realities.
If a stranger came into your town heavily armed, started asking questions then stuff went missing in houses.
Finally a murder happens, who do you think they'll blame.

The one thing I'd really like for games to try for is grey neutrality, a character that does not stand out, does not commit vile or good deeds heavily.
Would attract a certain type of people with quests, whether you play as a mercenery, thief, peasant with super powers or neutral druid.

"Morality" is a simplistic concept not fit for a world with Tamriel's cultural diversity. Recognition is a great and realistic idea.

I think I understand. My answer to that situation is this...

Anytime you are seen doing anything be it a good deed or a bad deed, the NPC who sees the player will need time to spread the word of your actions. In your example, if the blacksmith witnesses your good actions, but is killed before he has time to spread the word then no one else will know what you've done. They could implement a system where it takes 12 or 24 in game hours for your deeds to spread throughout the town it took place in and in the surrounding areas. Then in 48 hours it spreads farther, and so on and so forth. So eventually news has spread to most of the major towns and villages. Only if it makes sense though. Some remote house in the middle of the forest would not receive this effect.

That however, is for a good action. Not so good actions are a bit more tricky. Lets say that instead of stopping a thief, you killed a valuable customer instead. Well the blacksmith is not going to need a few hours to spread the word around town... He will immediately scream for the guards. If that happens, then you can either surrender (pay the fine, go to jail, or whatever else they implement this time), or you can kill all the guards and NPCs that may have seen and heard the incident. That may include the whole town, or just a few people in the immediate area of that town. Now, if you commit a crime like murder or theft, but you don't get caught, word will spread much like the good deeds. There won't be any immediate repercussions, but people will have a lower disposition of you because you match the description of the person who murdered an innocent shopper.

This can be stopped from spreading too far however. If you choose to let the witnesses live and thus the word spread around the town where the crime was committed, you can make sure that word doesn't spread any farther. Ideas for this include sneaking into the guard towers and stealing any records they have of you, killing couriers before they get to the next town, and so on and so forth.

This is going on a bit of a tangent I suppose, and I don't realistically expect this level of detail. It would be nice to see something similar to this at least in a basic form though. Unless you all hate this idea and don't want it implemented in any form whatsoever, haha. Just some thoughts on the situation you presented. Hope that clarifies the type of system I had in mind for you!

Yeah you answered my question thanks, could this also happen , say you kill a town resident try to clear the town of witnesses but miss one, well depending on your now recognition for your crimes could hypothetically various groups and factions could hunt you down and kill you , e.g dark brotherhood could be hired to assassinate you, a group of mercenaries could be hired to kill you and some guards from a nearby town decide to track you, but these groups spawn far away from you rather up close and then they all have a set speed to travel at so it could mean an epic battle of 3 factions. That was very long winded sorry again.

That could be very interesting as well. Again, this is just my own ideas on the topic and they certainly could be altered or expanded upon if anyone else has any thoughts but...

If one witness were to escape after slaughtering an entire village than yes, I would like a mechanic that allows different factions to send people to deal with you. That doesn't necessarily mean they would all want to kill you though. In fact, some might come and reward you or ask you to join them. The great thing about this is that we know Bethesda can do a system like this, as shown by the Regulators and Talon Company in Fallout 3. This idea is just an expansion of that system.

Let's say you kill everyone in town, except one survivor, and many of them were members or friends with the Fighters Guild. Well then let's say that no one in that particular village had any ties or importance to the Dark Brotherhood. Well, the Fighters Guild may send a group of people to kill you if that one survivor tells of your actions and it spreads far enough. However, the Dark Brotherhood may admire your work, and send a group to offer you a job or a reward. So depending on what ties the people you kill have to the various factions in Skyrim, consequences will ensue. The other great thing about this idea is that we also know that Bethesda is already doing something similar. They said as much with their explanations about killing shop owners and the shop owners sister taking over but holding a grudge against you. They just need to expand on that.

To answer the additional aspect of your question, yes, it would be great if they could also implement a system that allows these groups to find you at the same time on occasion. This could mean that you have three groups trying to kill you at once, or maybe one group trying to kill you and another that protects you. This might be asking for a bit too much, but it could never hurt to ask/try.

I hope that answers your question! :foodndrink: