My opinion is, Indy. Its the couriers way of trying to succed where NCR failed.

Are you by any chance an objectivist? Perhaps that's where our difference in opinion originates from.

I prefer houses views than the others, but he makes you destroy the BOS so id choose yes man as he would listen to your moral point of view if they were to make dlc, they should have done a Broken steel but on NV for whatever faction you sided with

Haha, no. At the risk of offending someone who is, objectivism is kind of a nonsensical philosophy. If I had to apply a label to my philosophical leaning, it'd be... secular humanism. Why?

If I had to generalize I'd categorize the major factions like this:
- NCR: secular humanism
- Legion: fascism
- House: objectivism
- Yes Man: anarchism

Of course, it's not an exact categorization (House is certainly a fairly good choice, and Yes Man does not necessarily mean anarchy), but I think it works as a crude guideline.

I agree with you about objectivism; I was never a fan of Ayn Rand.

I was just wondering, honestly. Your mention of Capitalism and a few other things from earlier in the thread made me curious as to whether you carried an objectivist philosophy. I'm more of a socialist (democratic socialist), in terms of preferred economic systems, so I assumed that if you did believe in objectivism, then that could have led to some of our disagreements concerning the NCR earlier in the thread.

I would say that the "anarchism" statement for Yes Man is only accurate if you blow up the generators in Hoover Dam.

But the NCR are no better than the enclave are they not? Eden said ' I am your duly elected representative' when he was made president by his people (enclave) while the NCR president, aaron kimball is it? he wasnt elected by the whole wasteland, they are just forcing land owners to join them or get out if they dont? fair dos, they arent evil but its not right they go over the wasteland demanding power etc...

Granted, but NCR atleast doesnt kill everyone. They take power of land and people that dont want to be a part of their republic, but Enclave just kills them. Enclave are also known to have kept slaves at one important part of the Fallout lore. Also, NCR are not racist, but Enclave clearly see them as the superior people that are destined to rule (nazis). But its really your opinion, who u think is better (or equal) but thats my opinion+why i see NCR as something seperated from the Enclave.

I still oppose the NCR, but i see them as better then Enclave.

I have a similar philosophy to you tycho that's probably why i'm coming to agree with a lot of the points you made. The thing that really brought posotive light on the legion for me is that not everyone in it is a slave or a legionary fighting, in fact people like the centurions and Caesar's high ranking officers probably live very privileged lives, not because they were born into a wealthy family or cheated people, but because they really worked hard for what they have. Also Caesar's philosophy (that is a little extreme) that mentions why they don't use medical supplies and such, because they don't want to live in the "shadow of death," is quite interesting and although brings great sacrifice, actually seems beneficial to the wasteland and the people living in legion territory (keep in mind i don't support or condemn this principle just reflecting on it). It seems the legion is one of the most interesting factions in fallout.

You're right, he wasn't elected by the wasteland, he was elected by citizens of the New California Republic. *facepalm* Why should people that aren't part of the NCR get a vote in NCR affairs? If the NCR wins at Hoover Dam, the Mojave does become incorporated into the NCR as a state, and thus gaining full citizenship status, but throughout the game the only territory the NCR really owns in the Mojave are their military bases, Primm (if you elect to have the NCR military replace the sherrif), and they jointly administer The Strip with House's Securitrons. That's it.

And keep in mind, the Mojave campaign began when Mojave raiders massacred several dozen NCR citizens, it was hardly a 'demand for power' (not that there was any real government in the Mojave to demand it from in the first place.) It was simply a matter of securing their borders by pushing the 'bad guys' as far away as possible. Since the day of their birth, the NCR has been under siege, surrounded by the Vipers, Jackals, and Khans, the BoS, the Shi, the Enclave, and the list goes on. Ever since, they've expanded their borders to keep their enemies 'at arms length', and the strategy of expansion has been resoundingly successful at increasing the security and prosperity of their territory and pretty much all of their foes from Fallout 1 and 2 are either scattered or destroyed. Of course there are economic reasons for their expasion (which is hardly unusual for any society), but despite it's great advances, the NCR is in many ways is still a country under siege.

Good point, many people say that the NCR only cares about their citizens, well if the win everyone in the mojave becomes their citizens. You are right about the mojave campaign starting when the citizens were killed by raiders, but the specific part we're seeing wasn't in response to that. It was because Kimball wanted the wealth of the region, i'm not saying that's bad, in fact the NCR was growing so naturally it needed to expand, and most of the settlers and soldiers truly want to help the citizens of the mojave. My only concern with the ncr in power is that it won't take the necessarily precautions to secure the region, the might just secure the wealthy areas and not do all they can for the poorer ones, other than that the NCR is a pretty good option for the mojave.

And the reason they haven't done that so far is that there just so happens to be a giant barbarian warband camped across the river. If they do win, they turn inwards to secure the Mojave, now that they aren't fighting a war on two fronts. Pretty much every problem the NCR faces in Mojave is due to the presence of the Legion. The Powder Gangers, Fiends, Khans, you name it, and the reason they can't deal with it right now is, you guessed it, the Legion. In fact, the Legion Army is basically a fleet in being, which is more valuable simply existing rather than being committed to the fight.

Yes i completely agree with you. It makes me wonder though how things would be going if oliver wasn't in charge of the war effort.

Why is Oliver a bad General, yes to anyone else I am bringing this up again; I want you to list his military blunders, his mistakes and why etc.

NCR commits crimes, just like the Legion does.

The only difference is, with their system, they can make their crimes legal before they commit them.

Well, if you talk to Hanlon it seems that General Oliver is a pretty bad tactician, and I believe that someone mentions that Oliver got his position as General because of some inside connection, when Hsu really deserved the position. Also, to me at least, when you talk to Oliver at the end of the game, he just seems like an idiot....but then again he is supposed to be a satiric representation of many "block headed" U.S. generals.



Exactly. I don't necessarily like the Legion and what they do, but I do appreciate them as a faction -- both for Caesar creating such a powerful force out of so many weak forces (uniting the 86 tribes) and for the writers and developers of the game for creating the whole idea of the Legion as a faction, with its interesting parallels to the Roman empire and for its uniqueness in the Fallout universe.

And yet he has made the best out of a precarious situation given the limited political attention and military resources available to him. I mean, it's funny how the same people who are saying 'the NCR is overextended and are going to collapse one day' are berating Oliver for not further overextending the NCR's limited assets in the Mojave by chasing down every petty little problem that exists in the Mojave. He made a pretty rational military decision imo (for what that's worth, I'm no soldier myself.) to simply secure the main strategic strongholds and the logistical routes rather than wandering out into the desert just like the Legion would want them to do.

As for the charge that he's a political appointee, top posts in the leadership of most military organizations are a somewhat political position. In any country with formalized civillian control over the military, top generals are responsible for working with the civilian government to implement the strategy the government puts forth. Not the other way around. Just like any member of the President's cabinet, they have to be a team player, just look at MacArthur and McChrystal. If you fill all your generals billets with unruly 'tacticians', then nothing will get done. Ever.

I'm not saying Hsu isn't a good officer, but any President would want people they know and trust on assignments they feel are important. Is that fair? Maybe, maybe not, but that's how it works in real life too. Out of all the criticisms of Oliver, this seems to be the most silly. It isn't his job to be a 'tactician', that's Sergeant's work, his is to implement policy. Has he done a good job on that? It's debatable, but I think he's done as good as anyone could reasonably expect given his less than desirable situation.

I was actually comparing them to the Enclave, but whatever. NCR doesnt burn towns so they are better then Legion or Enclave, they dont crucify and keep slaves (unless you count the convicts but they kinda did something to deserve that).

Mr House = The Illusive Man

I think Arclight said it pretty good. Bad tactician? He wasn't even at the first battle for the Dam was he, I thought that was Kimball - hence his election platform as a war hero; besides where does Hanlon get away with judging anyone else's tactics? Hanlon is a Ranger, basically the NCR's special forces; commanding small elite units, setting up the ambush that saved the battle, that's his bag; but I wouldn't trust him to command an army of hundreds or thousands, true he saved the first battle but so what? He's a different kind of tactician to Oliver.

And Hsu? What the hell has Hsu ever done? Because Boone said so? Hsu doesn't stike me as anywhere near a capable officer as Oliver or Moore, the situation in the Mojave doesn't call for his kind of leadership; Hsu strikes me as someone who'd end up chasing resources around the NCR positions trying to save his men's lives which is all well and good except that the NCR doesn't have enough to go around.

The defence of appointing Oliver as mererly a political decision was a good point and needs no further elaboration.

The NCR logistics are at breaking point in the Mojave and people say Oliver's bad because he hasn't attacked the Legion first? That he's letting them "gather strength" for one he hasn't even been there since the end of the last battle. Secondly, just because he's a General doesn't mean he co-ordinates every single soldier; he sets-up the biggest pieces and then Colonel Moore decisides how to use them defending the Dam. Thirdly, "Wait-and-see Oliver hur hur" instead of just quoting that from whomever said it first, some grunt I believe or the impatient imperialist Moore, explain why it's bad; why is it bad that Oliver isn't storming the Legion, the NCR are in a far worse position than the Legion.

IMO Oliver is doing the best job he can in his position, so Cottonwood Cove, Searchlight and Nelson - so what? Part of being a leader in that climate is making tough decisions and Oliver is clearly making the choice to not weaken the number of troops stationed at the Dam chasing ultimately little problems; that's why I believe Hsu would fail. Oliver is a damn decent military commander, who knows maybe he cares about his men's lives.


House is no-where near as cool as TIM.

I don't think you pay as much attention to lore as you think you do. Oliver got the 'Wait and See' name from that being his usual strategy. The Fiends are right on their door step, and their resolve is 'lets send mercs to do the work'. They have resources to run covert ops into Baja, run a subterfuge food supply in Freeside, and all the crap they own, yet they can't send in a platoon of the 'big bad' Veteran Rangers? You can claim 'resources' all you want. But at the end of the day, Oliver is a bumbling and incompetent leader. Also, Cottonwood Cove, Searchlight, and Nelson are big loses. A Legion insertion point, a nuked base camp, and a Legion occupied butchered town. Right, 'acceptable' losses. To me, that's just bloody embarassing. If they can't even secure their own territory, they can't defend the dam. The ONLY reason they won the second Battle for Hoover Dam would be if The Courier aided them, House, or Independant. and two of those battles result in the winning the battle and losing the War in the Mojave.

Also, funnily enough, your whole line about 'Hsu chasing resources', that's what this whole NCR occupation is about. If you truly believe they're about 'spreading peace, love, and democracy' then you've joined the side of the sheep, pallie.

House is like any CEO, he wants power and is willing to do anything to get it... Control over New Vegas is a win to him, morality doesn't really play a part in it.

Morality is subjective. One mans idea of right is another mans idea of wrong.

Money is the one thing that the NCR has, makes sense to essentially sub-contract the work to others.


How do we know that Baja is his call? If he's on the frontlines at the Mojave why would wasting resources of his own volition in Baja, which is apparently the consensus from the sage grunts of the NCR Army who call him "wait-and-see". As for the Rangers I'm not entirely sure how they interact with the Army, Ranger Milo claims to have no authority over even privates outside Nelson; from that I assumed that they operated basically as two seperate branches. The NCR Rangers joined the NCR Army of their own will right? They were once vigilante anti-slavers in Fallout 2. From Milo's comment I assumed the existance of some kind of "union" where both retain seperate heirarchies.


Of course they can defend the Dam, the Legion is only sending operatives and scouts through the Cove; if anything relevant began happening their now the NCR have a Ranger outpost over-seeing everything (presumably established after Searchlight or that's just the Ranger's being incompetant). The Legion aren't - and don't - capable of attacking the Dam from both sides; all that's important are the number of bodies and bullets on the Dam, the NCR is entirely accepting of it's siutation really. The NCR isn't ready defend Legion assault let alone attack the Legion, that's why they never attack the Legion's main base.

The way I see it is that Oliver at-least understands that preventing Caesar's assault is impossible and that it's going to be coming very soon - that much isn't contested by anyone. To that end his plan is hold the Dam at all costs; everything else could fall to pieces but on the day as long as the NCR keep the Legion on the other side of the Dam the Fumentarii as pissing in the wind. If troops need to be sacrificed from the Dam to retake a [censored] outpost like Nelson how does that help the battle of the Dam? It doesn't, it just means less people on the Dam to defend it and once the Legion win they'll pour through and take Nelson again.

You know I hate the NCR. I see... when I meant chasing resources I meant is that Hsu strikes me as the type unable to understand the concept of strategic losses, that sometimes men need to be sacrificed for the benefit of others; he strikes me as the type who would weaken the Dam by sending aid to Nelson, Forlorn Hope and anyone who asked - actions which I believe would be ultimately detrimental to the NCR because all that matters is the Dam.

Pffft, barely. The NCR dollar is valued at half its worth.



The rangers and NCR army ARE two seperate branches, but my point is that they are picking and choosing their priorities, which is terribly stupid.


Operatives and Scouts can do more damage than an army if given the chance. It's the covert operatives who can deliver vital intelligence that's far more valuable than a lowly private shooting down an enemy combatant. You're defending Oliver because you make the same mistakes he makes. You think 'psh, lowly operatives'. But look at the one covert plant they have, he's been feeding intel to the Legion for a long time. Also, why would the Legion need to attack both sides of the Dam? They can easily over come the one side. The only reason they delayed is they were waiting on Lanius, who Caesar was waiting on as basically his intention to scare his troops into fighting to the death at NCRs hands, or die by Lanius' hand.

So by that logic, NCR could have mounted the heavy artillery from home, but they don't. I find it hard to imagine the NCR doesn't have at least 1-2 vertibirds capable of air assaults. Ultimately, the NCR is bumbling about in its own self superiority, and Oliver is hosting the party alongside Kimball.


I don't think so. He sent a ranger to try and take on Motor Runner. If one ranger can take on a large number of troops before injury or death, sending in a handful of rangers would have cleared out Vault 3.