I still have a hard time trying to figure out who exactly backs the cap as currency; it used to be the guys in the Boneyard right, those guys who are now a huge part of the NCR (you need an NCR water-distribution license for example).


The NCR are stupid, they're like 150 years old and already tied themselves in bureaucratic knots without even the precident of hundreds of years of traditionalism, symbolism and history.


Of course covert operatives are of incredible value, but it seems that the NCR leadership doesn't consider it valuable enough to waste resources on and I would be inclined to concur; Caesar is just waiting for Lanius, if you go by Boone's statments after you kill Caesar the NCR is fully aware that even Caesar's death wouldn't stop an invasion. Cottonwood cove, as a base, does nothing; it's victories include taking a barely staffed outpost and smuggling a dirty bomb over, a moderately sized camp capable of defending itself - Camp Forlorn Hope - is still holding out. It's all a matter of time, nobody in the NCR is happy about Cottonwood Cove but devoting resources to that cause isn't worth enough.

I stand-by my arguement, it's an incredibly dangerous card to be playing but given that Oliver himself was at the Dam I'm not going to be-grudge him for making it - IMO. The invasion is coming and the only thing that is ultimately going to stop Lanius is having enough people on the Dam to hold it; Nelson and whatever else are acceptable losses when compared to the Dam, what happens what it gets taken? The Legion can pour en-masse in all directions, denying the NCR of their veritable killing field and bottle-neck; if the Legion crossed the Dam the NCR would be completely [censored] in the Mojave - and in-fact they are aren't they?

You see what I'm suggesting right? Things are crumbling on both sides and nobody can deny it, but if on that one day the NCR can win at the Dam then everything falls into place; an incredibly risky tactic but I cannot see an alternative whilst holding the Dam.

All of which were isolated outposts in the middle of strategic nowhere. If anything, it's because they have concentrated their forces at Hoover Dam (where the oh-so-brilliant Legion did attack) that Searchlight and Nelson fell. If Caesar played directly into Oliver's plan, striking at the highest point of concentration of a foe with vast advantage of firepower and fighting from a powerful, well-supplied, well-manned defensive position with some of the best units available in-theatere, and Oliver's 'a bumbling idiot', then what does that make Caesar?

And IIRC, in Independant, you can interfere very little in the overall course of the battle by deactivate the Dam rather than the Securitrons at The Fort (meaning you don't stab the Legion in the back in the midst of the battle), the NCR still defeats the Legion and makes it all the way to the Legate's Camp (although you have to kill or convince Lanius to retreat beforehand.) So I think you just contradicted yourself there, without Courier intervention, the NCR still defeats the Legion, they just get stabbed in the back afterwards in the House and Inde endings. In fact, I would argue that it's the Legion that requires Courier intervention, since there is no ending where they win without the Courier's help.

• Won't use rangers because he is jealous of them getting credit for hoover dam, so he only uses troopers

2.wants to mass troops at the dam and beat the legion in a head on slugging match, while it has been said they have more troops

3. got his job only because he knows the president

4. won't improve ANY sort of offensive

5.and if you read his wiki page there's a quote from MCA (or another dev i forget which one) saying that it is his fault the war is going badly and they designed his character like that

• Then why are Rangers at the Dam?
  
• Explain why that's a bad plan? As I have why it's the only real option availabe? I suppose that the alternative is to have less troopers on the Dam for the Legion's inevitable invasion?
  
• A stratagem that has been defended on here, better than I, by Arclight on the previous page. Basically his position as General is just as political as it is military and that it makes sense that the President appoint someone he can rely on to the position. Kind of like how the Joint Chiefs of Staff aren't in Iraq and Afganistan but back in America in the Pentagon working on the big picture.
  
• Okay. With my 2nd reponse please tell my why/how, after you yourself admitting that the NCR has less men, the NCR can launch anykind of offensive.
  
• I don't care what the developer said, unless he provided new canonical infomation to support that then I am going on what is in the game; an otherwise, never to be know, scribble in the margin of a design document is not what I call condeming proof of Oliver's failure.

EDIT: If you want to discus this further go back a page and read my responses to Martyr.

Just for clarification: To lazy to respond to your previous post, hey, at least i'm honest.

1. Wasteland is misinformed. It's not that Oliver refuses to use them. The truth is that Oliver is jealous of Hanlon's hailing as a hero for his previous battle. As such he is intentionally sticking Hanlon's rangers in a position the Rangers won't be able to adequetly defend. This however can change if you complete Hanlon's questline.

2. Just to point out, I don't think there's only such a brash and wreckless choice left. I can't go into detail since one could deduce a myriad of other alternatives, but still.

3. The problem isn't reliability, it's the quality of his work. Just because Oliver is trustable by Kimball as a person doesn't make him a suitable candidate for General. What are Oliver's qualifications for his office? I'm not being harsh or rude, just being very discussive. Because through out all of my playthroughs as NCR, House, Legion, and Indie, and NEVER did I like Oliver. He's a glory seeking 'female dog'.

4. Nothing to discuss.

5. Why? A dev's statement on a game is pretty much 'Word of God'. Not knitpicking mind you, but if Chris said that, it's no reason to refute it.

1. Martyr covered this
2. The bad part is that there is absolutely no strategy in simply massing troops in one area, look at the first battle, it was won because of great tactics by Hanlon not by just throwing troops at the legion.
3. I'm not saying that it's bad for Kimball to hire someone he trusts and is his friend, i'm saying it's bad when you hire someone more based on that then their military expertise, should the president make his dog general because he trusts it and it's his best friend? No because that dog knows nothing about military tactics or politics.
4. Just because they have less men does not mean they can't launch an offensive, despite oliver's incompetence there are some very smart officers out there who can pull off some major victories.
5. Sure he was designed to be a bad general that is the reason the war is going badly, but you don't care you know in your heart he is a genius.

Yeah and I guess that that's pretty irrefutable, not to mention ridiculous. At the same time though I find it either implausible or completely illogical if he is so self-motivated. Oliver himself goes to the Dam, so he goes to the frontline on his supposedly corrupt and stupid plan? I don't see the rationale behind that for someone supposedly capable of putting his own men and the mission in danger over petty concerns; it would at least suggest to me a sincere belief in the ability of his troopers if nothing else.


I get the feeling that other choice was "Ally with House", tell me I'm wrong .


We never find out much about the character, or Kimball either, which I why I find most of these damming opinions on him more than a little un-informed. He was clearly a senior officer before being a General. By that token why does Boone think Hsu should have made General? I don't recall if he gives any reasons, it's been too long. As far as I am concerned he died with a gun in his hand fighting and that's more than enough for my respect as an opponent; a rare honour even afforded the WC Brotherhood.


General Oliver doesn't seem to grasp basic military strategy. What real life persons were an inspiration for his character? Would you agree Oliver's the main cause the war is going badly for the NCR?
He's a mishmash of various aggressive, blockheaded military commanders. Generals LeMay and Patton are obvious examples, though completely without the forethought of those two men. - J.E. Sawyer.

So for one I guess for one Sawyer doesn't actually say Oliver's entirely responsible, a good call on his part, but aside from saying he's aggressive (something which I'd say is the complete opposite of the tactics he employs, i.e., "wait-and-see" Oliver) he doesn't say that Oliver's even bad.


2. No strategy is needed, the Legion are going to attack the Dam whether Camp Nelson is in Legion or NCR hands; what's going to stop the Legion and ultimately save the NCR in the Mojave is as many bodies on the Dam as possible. It's a narrow-bridge, the NCR's tactics are presumably to turn the whole thing into a killing field and bottle-neck the Legion forces; given that the NCR have a hell-of-a-lot more guns that the Legion it's not a plan worth derriding.

3. We know nothing of his military experience outside of that he was at the first battle, we aren't told anything about the guy before 2277.

4. The Legion are on the other side of the Dam, aside from an all out offensive what else is there? Cottonwood Cove? Nelson? As I mentioned in 2. those are ultimately irrelevant to the battle and are a waste of resources to deal with; the NCR needs to hold the tide of Legion back at-all-costs, leaving Nelson under a Legion banner for a little longer isn't going to hurt too-much.

Or that Oliver was so tunnel visioned in the hopes of stealing glory from Hanlon he didn't think of the consequences.

I like that plan, but I was thinking more 'NCR could have called in some real Pre-War firepower'

Don't give me that line. We may not know ALL the angles of Oliver and Kimball, but we know enough to know they're the equivalent of a steam engine chugging fast for the glory across the bridge, to blind to see the bridge that needs crossing is out.



Aggressive doesn't mean 'hops to it', it means they are very onesided in most cases. Look at Oliver if you side with House, he isn't of the mindset that two nations can be seperate yet cordial, it's 'all or none'.

Like Enclave has pointed out though, Oliver is just in charge of the Mojave, not Baja, not the entire NCR. The NCR is a democracy, Oliver and Kimball may have had political opposition at home. That's a failing of the NCR, not Oliver.

At this point though, they've exhausted seven years of resources and lives into this campaign. Tossing in a howitzer or vertibird at this point won't be a huge problem as opposed to not doing it.

That's true. Still not Oliver's fault that he doesn't have those things though.

I blame the Mole Rats. They're preparing a rebellion. I just know it.

Yes, how dare he not be diplomatic after being stabbed in the back by a pompous [censored] in a particularly arrogant fashion. Even the more fair-tempered Hsu is bitter how they have to protect House for all these years while he offers absolutely nothing in return and svcks enormous amounts of wealth from the NCR. After what House did, expecting to be recognized as 'seperate yet cordial' is simply bewildering to say the least.

Yeah, House can't play politics either - tribal politics not-with-standing. He really does have a somewhat undeserved sense of arrogance about the NCR considering his own situation; the NCR didn't bring the Legion they would have come anyway, there presence is why he is alive.

So? Oliver is clearly in no position to renegotiate. I see New Vegas as rightfully being Houses, no matter what logic people attempt to justify as NCRs. Besides, NCR planned on assassinating House, so it was a 'It's either you or me, so it might as well be you.' scenario.

That's because House has little interest in NCR. Imagine.....someone who builds something the way they want to, wanting all other factions of relevance to either play along or just go away. NCR would SAY they'll be happy to do X, Y, and Z, but then stab you in the back. Considering the NCR does very shady and immoral acts to force people out of land they want, I'd say the NCR has an undeserved sense of arrogance in their modus operandi, thinking they have the right to seize what they want. House wants to keep his Vegas. Do you know why the NCR came? It's because they saw Vegas and what House had done, and they wanted it. Suits NCR to a T, they can't do their own work, so they have to reap the work of others.

And why did House rebuild Vegas in 2271? Because he saw the NCR soldiers, hypothesised that they must belong to a professional army and re-established Vegas to both protect his interests and cater to their clientele. For a man so wise, apparently the most important decision of his life was devoted to pure vanity when he chose his base of operations - a city of scum and vice, devoid of meritocracy and anything of constructive value, and his primary source of income reliant on the idiocy - and yet financial stablility - of another nation. The founder of Robco, a mind of the century apparently and - again - he gives himself in to a total and entirely less-than-pragmatic short-term goal of rebuilding such a horrible and guady place. His plan depends entirely on the existance of a faction where either it's common-folk have enough superflous money that they can make the trip and squander it or that the faction in question moves enough of it's pwn people into the area that there is a constant local supply; in summary, his plan depends on the existance of essentially a new self-sufficient country both existing and invading the immediate area around him - and don't you think he's kind of setting himself up for a fall here? It's got to be the most bare-bones, balls-to-the-wall and risky idea ever; and risky it is, without his upgraded Securitrons the guys pretty [censored] and dependant on the NCR hordes to keep the Legion from tearing him apart.

His faith in humanity was clearly pretty great if he was so confident that an entity like the NCR would be the first to come across him as opposed to one like the Legion; in-short his decision to have the most superflous city before the war, dependant on the most affluent of persuits after the war, as the crux of both his plan and, ultimately, his life doesn't speak anything good about his character (or at least his pragmatism anyway).

EDIT: Your "the NCR are greedy [censored]s" arguement doesn't work on me because I, in no way, ever try to defend the NCR on some kind of moral level.

EDIT2: I'm not questioning House's goals, I even find the spaceship idea fairly plausible, but this Vegas fetish bothers me more than anything - plus his arrogant disregard for the people that will ultimately be funding any more constructive endevour his undertakes.

Actually, it reflects YOUR pragmatism is no good. House recognised the world of today doesn't care about the conveniences RobCo offered. Also, Vegas is the most beautiful confidence trick ever invented. For those who recognise its pitfalls, they come to enjoy the atmosphere and see a show or two. But for the fool it entices them to come, chasing penny ante dreams of becoming a rich Wastelander, only to go home broke as a twig under a hoof. The best part? It's chosen robbery. They opened their pockets to Vegas out of their own greed.

I don't care about people in broadstrokes. I care for the down trodden, but for those who weep and wail when they lose their money, I simply put on a stone face and shrug saying 'Perhaps now you'll have learned a lesson'. Even the Securitrons advise people that 'Self Control is a Virtue.'. I enjoy the idea of technologic and social progress. But there's one thing you seem to have failed to realise. Before one can found a society of leisure and conveniences as a society with RobCo, one must cater to the bleating masses, an appeal to the plebian first. Pearls before swine and all that. But I do believe House when he says 'Bring me the Platinum Chip, and in Ten Years, you'll hardly recognise this city.'.

You're not American. While not required, I think an American could appreciate the concept of Vegas much more. After all, Vegas is basically an American concept.

Having the same president for over fifty years isn't really a democracy.

Of course House has to rely on the NCR, they've stretched their system over a gigantic plot of land, so almost everyone who lives west of the Mojave is under the NCR's system, and without people coming to Vegas, his regime doesn't mean much because he REALLY needs the money and economy to fulfill his regime.

It will be at least a couple decades for House to become completely self-reliant (assuming the Courier decides to help him).

Vegas fetish? I think fetish is the wrong word by a long shot, but Vegas is probably more viable than any other city for House's regime, because it's MONEYMONEYMONEY. And House, even in his stealth-like state before the events of New Vegas, has lots and lots of money.

By the time New Vegas comes around, what he has been planning for centuries has been working! He has both the NCR and Legion svcking on his teats. How? If you ask him, he will tell you. The brass at McCarran will not risk a full-on assault on Vegas, because its' annexation is secondary compared to holding the dam. They're also very afraid of Caesar. Caesar won't launch an attack at Vegas, because the NCR has practically created a barrier all around New Vegas, not to mention the fact that Caesar's long-term goal is mainly the dam, while, just like the NCR, New Vegas' annexation (or conquering, in the Legion's case) is secondary.

Because that's totally relevant to the point I was trying to make. Seriously.

I agree that the NCR is somewhat of a Democracy in most other ways, but when other people state "it's just like the good ol' american democracy", they're wrong. You weren't saying that, I just wanted to make it a point that NCR isn't entirely a democracy.

And what exactly is that point? You're right, it isn't carbon-copied 21st century 'American democracy', but there are a lot of democratic countries that do not have term limits, and you would be hard pressed to convince someone from say the UK that they are not democratic because Winston Churchill spent a decade in the post of Prime Minister. It's rare, but extremely popular leaders can stay in office for a long time if there are no formal term limits (we instated them here in the states after FDR died while serving his fourth term in office.) Since when did it become a crime against democracy for a leader to do their job well again? We have no reason to believe that the NCR did not have regular elections in the timespan of Tandi's reign, so we can assume that Tandi had to overcome regular and numerous referendums of her performance, and that each time the voters supported her since she kept her office. So how is the NCR not a democracy again?

I don't understand. As far as I am concerned House had the pre-war resources to accomplish pretty much anything and he chose to save Las Vegas of all places - purely for personal preferences. My point is that doing so, as he didn't set himself up with any other business, means that his income, and thus any plans he makes, relies on - after total nuclear war no-less - the existance of a state like the NCR and then requires this state to all but kick his front door in to supply him with clientele. He could have prepared for any business after the war, he - as a roboticist - could mock those people at Big MT; he could have set-up all kinds of automated manufacturing, mining or whatever other business he wanted and he chose to try and make a gambling capital. Again, good job the NCR exists otherwise it would have been Caesar who first found him and then "all that good" would be completely lost again.


Perhaps, IMO Vegas is an entire city devoted to anti-meritocracy and offers nothing of value.


It's just anti-NCR smugness, the implication - from Caesar no-less - is that in the glory days of the NCR Tandi ruled for so long that the NCR was - essentially - ruled like a monarchy, he implies that nobody could ever, politically, stand-up to oppose Tandi because she was so popular to do so would be professional suicide; you see his point but so what? They had an effective leader, it wasn't democracy's fault that she died - bet nobody would live into their 100's in the Legion.


None of which has been dependant on him doing a damn thing, he's justs insanely fortunate that Las Vegas was built somewhere that - after a nuclear war - would be in the right area for the emergence of two new countries to be too busy with eachother and not small timers like House; good job it wasn't built on the East Coast or House would have been [censored], nobody to gamble there is there.

Do you not see my point, chosing gambling as your main source of income - after a nuclear war. It pretty much demands that whatever House could have offered to human re-development has already taken place, it relies on the existance of an entity far greater than yourself settling in your area to provide you with regular customers or perhaps moving vast quantities of people into and out-of the area on a regular basis, i.e., soldiers.

House hasn't done a damn thing to safe-guard his position, just act snooty to the NCR - despite being aware that they want him dead - and having his own insubordinates betray him. Seriously, back to the casino point, he took these tribals to mould into his employees and was - again - so commited to his Vegas nonsense that he turned at least too of them, maybe three, into criminal organisations; and he could have tried to mould them into anything he wanted but no, back in the old days the Mafia had a significant presence in my precious Vegas so I'll rebuild the mafia as my employees, and a gang of Rat-Pack impersonators too whom clearly having criminal underpinnings.

So no, it's a fetish, House went completely out of his way to try and make it all like before, even resurecting the Mafia just to make it extra realistic. It's illogical, nonsensical and House's jam is nobody elses fault but his own. I had completely forgotten all about that, rebuilding it is one thing, putting your entire economy into the hands of post-nuclear mass gambling another, but intentionally creating disloyal and corrupt employees when an enemy is at your door - solely because that's what Vegas was like - is just stupid and all the families betrayals and easy corruptability is proof of that.

Aside from Benny the Tops is pretty easy-going, then again that's how they all are there.
The Omertas Mafia are colaborating with Caesar and if the WGS return to canibalism they do the same.

Again, because no one cares. When you start a city, a county, state, whatever, what is the first thing you do? You design something to appeal as much as possible to the masses. You're looking at the technology but not the people. People don't care about the luxury items of RobCo in general. RobCo was a company for the people of its day. What's more likely to draw more people? A city with the idea of 'You could leave RICH!' or 'We have conveniency items like Pipboys!'. Also, House is still in the early settlement phase, it's not until after the game that House can truly do what he wants.


So? That's how Vegas always was. Before Bugsy Siegel, Vegas was a small time watering hole for GIs, Bugsy, a gangster from a poor Jew background, helped change the face of Vegas. My point is, Vegas isn't by the book city for some whiny kid going 'I WENT TO COLLEGE! I AM SUPERIOR!' Vegas has always been a high stakes game of chance. Only the most practical and determined stay on top.



Considering House saved an entire region from nuclear warheads. Technically no, there would be people to gamble either way, seeing as House would have saved his region he loved either way.

You're being very derpy over this. This is just a kickstarter income. RobCo started out with a select product to make income, then what happened? It expanded its revenue type. Not much one for vision, huh?

The region would always have survived but he'd be waiting a hell of a lot longer if it had been somewhere other than were it was. Nobody in the saved Vegas certainly cared enough to do anything more than become tribals. Christ say what you want about D.C. but at least there weren't too many genuine tribals there aside from the Church of Atom freaks.


That's the point. It's such a derpy and risky kick-starter for a man of House's capabilities, there area multitude of things which would be greater winners in a post-apocalyptic economy that he fully had the dollars and resources to establish before the war but he chose to rely on Vegas for what reason? Because he loved it, and he resurrected the Mafia for the same reason; he wanted it all like it was before the war and that's fine as an objective but a logical and pragmatic man it does not make.

Besides RobCo didn't make conveniency items, it made terminals and robots that could do everything from be butlers to make stuff; he could have made a huge hydroponics facility tended to by robots or a mining/manufacturing plant. He had so much money before the war, how do governments and people turn paper money into long-term investments IRL? They buy gold or jewlery or other physical investments. However House managed to predict the end of the world 15 years in advance I refuse to believe that he squandered everything he and RobCo had on a few hundred Securitrons and an anit-ballistic missle defence system; in all those years it never occured to him to convert that soon to be useless money and material into something that would be other similar value after the war?

EDIT: At least you're back to normal again.

You should go read some of Plato's philosophy. Might give you a whole new view on Democracy.