When it comes to New Vegas I am perpetually in flux choosing between Independent and House and the problem ultimately boils down to this.

1. Independent ending secures new Vegas with the securitron army according to the ending, leaving most native communities, the families, freeside, west side, boomers, goodsprings, jacobstown, nipton, novac self-governing but also secure because the securitrons protect new vegas, according to Yes Man.

2. House's ending secures the whole region (basically) for his own purposes, and sets upon his vision for rebuilding vegas' technology sector so he can build space ships and leave the planet and begin again elsewhere, building Vegas into a post-apocalyptic Singapore while he's at it.

My question to you all is

Is House's vision a moral one?

I personally find the idea of svcking up huge amounts of the NCR and Vegas economies to build spaceships to colonize other planets to be incredibly problematic. He's written off the idea of healing this planet, and as I am not a Keynesian economist, I feel that spending all that money on things that will not help the broader society will damage the economy and cripple what would be the two largest, wealthiest societies in the wasteland. However, with House at the helm with actual vision, Vegas will ultimately be more wealthy than under Yes Man and if House's vision succeeds, humanity will have a glorious future. Although on the other hand, House could just be insane after 200 years and humanity might just be the exact same, just on another planet.

What do you all think?

I feel bad killing him. It's a very grey area what you are talking about. Good writing though, just makes the player think about his discision.

Morality in itself is a vague term - as in it varies from person to person and from group to group. One of the big themes in New Vegas is that each faction has it's own shade of gray, and it's up to you, the Courier, to find which shade is ultimately the best for the future of the Mojave.

As for whether House's ending will turn out better than the Indy ending...well that's up to each person too, and this thread will give you differing opinions on which ending is best for the Mojave.

Here's my take on it:

Mr. House is a nice fellow, overall, and I believe that he truly has humanity's best interest at heart. He's a genius, a visionary, a CEO, and one of the most intelligent and influential people in the postwar world. And he's also a disconnected, business minded, all powerful despot who has the ability, once his securitrons are upgraded, to take total and absolute control over everyone in the Mojave. House sees things in terms of numbers, and he is quite disconnected from the lives of people in the wasteland. He sees New Vegas as a remedy for mankind's derailment - a way for people to build the old world again through Vegas and through his visions for new technological wonders - but in all of these wondrous plans House seems to forget what got everyone into this mess in the first place, in other words he doesn't seem to see what really derailed mankind.

He fails to see that greed and corruption and the powerful controlling the not so powerful ultimately caused the Great War, and that with his new "government" he would just be carrying on the torch of the 1% having economic control over the 99%. Granted House is more enlightened than most when it comes to absolute rulers, he would still be lording over everyone else with his "free economic zone of New Vegas." Seriously? "Free Economic Zone?" Could it be any more obvious that he's trying to rebuild the Old World except that now he's in charge of everything? It must be a dream come true for him. How nice. But that doesn't mean that by imposing his dreams on everyone else he's actually going to help everyone else, he might think it will but that's just how he rationalizes why he is always correct and no one else is.

My point about House is this: He thinks he's always indisputably correct about everything. He has a massive army of powerful security drones that, because of their status as controlled AI, will do whatever he wants when he wants it without any chance of rebelling against him or thinking about their actions. House thinks of people more as statistics than as ya know, living, free-thinking beings like him. House's dreams for New Vegas seem to consist of resurrecting Old World customs, technology, and culture while he maintains total control over everything. So essentially it's prewar America minus the American Government and instead a single despot with total control. To me this seems rather dangerous. House could easily turn the Mojave into a police state where all of the proletarians slave away to build up Vegas factories and new Casinos while the Bourgeois (his casino families and casino employees) get most of the favors from him. It's like a weird mix of Enlightened Despotism and hardcoe Capitalism with a post apocalyptic twist, and while House might ultimately get things done (like expanding Vegas and creating advanced technology), he ultimately won't be helping the majority of the people in the Mojave.

A lot of that is speculation, but it's what I would predict were I the Courier based on what I listed above (House: seeing people as statistics, having a massive army of completely obedient, emotionless soldiers, believing that he is always correct, and having dreams that essentially result in him having control of a prewar business utopia - which seems like a dream he had long before the Great War itself). The possibilities are too dangerous for my liking, which is why I favor the Yes Man ending in the long run. Yes Man can use House's data to manage Vegas, and the rest of the Mojave is essentially left to their own devices, where they could build up their own towns and settlements to either prosper or die. The choice would be theirs. And while the Courier would still have control over Yes Man and Vegas, the Courier isn't immortal, so if he were to go mad with power and abuse his control over the securitron army, he would still die, eventually - so the fail safe is still there (unlike with House, where he is, as far as we know, immortal).

One sentence summary: Do you trust House with all of this power, considering what you know about him and his history?

Excellent response Tycho! Really well written. I want to see Colonel Martyr write an equally long and eloquent response post though. lol

Personally, I'm in the group that feels that House is simply using the examples that he does as hypotheticals. He doesn't intend to actually send colony ships to other planets. How does that make sense for him? Either he sends other people, who he knows better than to trust, or he goes himself, and risks losing his empire.

In his takeover of the Mojave, it can be assumed that at first House focuses his attention on Vegas, with the rest of the Mojave receiving only limited protection and survellance. As a result, they pay few, if any, taxes, and have few, if any, respsponsibilities, but they still receive protection from House, because he can't have anyone encroaching on his turf. Slowly, he'll recruit minds from NCR, the Mojave, and potentially other sources and work on rebuilding the Mojave's most basic infrastructure such as electricity prodcution, running water, etc. These people will be scientists, businessmen, and the like and will form the Mojave's middle class and will be given houses in a restored Outer Vegas and will begin reviving the more important infrastructure such as mining, factories, etc. Slowly, workers will be drawn from the population to work in these places, becoming a working class. The rest of the population of the Mojave will be poor farmers, rich farmers, small shopkeepers, and those who provide useful services. Eventually, the Mojave's population will be big enough to provide a human police force to free the securitrons for military combat. At this point, alliances will have been made with the NCR (or at least organization within NCR territory), and other outside governments. The Mojave will be an economic powerhouse and a sort of dirty utopia, similar to the United States of the early to mid 1900s, where a person can come to find good paying work and a safe place to stay. Taxes will be significant and may punish the lower class of miners, farmers and small business owners, however the Mojave's factories will be capable of churning out many amenities enjoyed by pre-war America, though Vegas itself will obviously be a beacon and be something like the Capitol from the Hunger Games series. From New Vegas, civilization, or at least House's vision of it, will begin to spread to the surrounding area.

While House's lack of concern for the people over whom he will rule is a problem, it can be mitigated by the courier, and potentially a council of some sort provided the courier proves to be a useful perspective on things. Ultimately, I think that House is the best option for both the Mojave and humanity. His potential immortality is also problematic, but again, this can be adressed by keeping him connected to his subjects through a secondary form of government that can handle the administrative duties that House will inevitably stop caring about as his dreams come closer to sucess.

To adress your question with a bit more brevity, I believe that the "moral" choice is the one that does the most good for the most people. House is the one who can and will do that, and that makes him the most moral side in the game.

It's a tough one but I believe his goals will be alot more beneficial long term to keep the human race pushing on and challenging itself .They only way to advance is to do things on the cusp of your ability.

Good and Evil are both the same, only one of which is to blame. (House)

I'm better than house because I have lived in an age before the great war and promise things. I am also quite filled with hubris as well.

If you support me, everyone will be given a free flying car. Grandma will never die and people will live forever. There will be no crime, the sky will rain ice cream. Unless you don't like ice cream and in that case it will rain the preferred thing you would wish for the sky to rain.

Support me in my decision to rule over the mojave region and humanity will reach the peak of accomplishment. I am surely a man of endless vision and intellect.

Yes, admittedly I have run into my own problems in accomplishing this perfect but assuredly inevitable vision of perfections.
For nearly two centuries I have been hindered from my perfect, certain to be accomplished visions I claim, by nothing more than a slight inability to even have control over my forces for centuries, and further by my inability to obtain a single, small crucial object.
But look at my, Victor Grey's, record of accomplishment. Minus house's ever impressive ability to roughly civilize a random group of tribals, and to claim he will turn Nevada in Perfect Utopialand, I am just as qualified as House. But, I also offer Twice the level of perfect utopian visions pulled out my butt, for you to buy into. Which is what you want.

Nevertheless I assure you if I gain control and can establish a dictatorship, then spaceships, magic, progress, wealth, happiness, justice, beauty, eternal life, free money, and wonderment will brighten horizons of rainbow glory. If only I am granted control of the mojave with your assistance in gaining reign over a couple more fighting robots.

Come yon fellows, back to days of yesteryear. Together we will create a perfect society. We will live in a world of whimsy, and it will be beautiful.
You need only place worshipful faith in me and my message, that is all. Confidence in my own record of accomplishments that happened two centuries ago alone, to create a perfect world.

Indeed thinking as some would say in "practical terms" considering your decisions for the mojave is just plain silly. Remember my friends; perfect utopian spaceship robotworld. This is MY promise to you.

Ignore any of my perceived failures in the past. Accept any arbitrary Utopian claims I can conjure up which would convince you into assisting me.
I am a undoubtedly, a boundless genius of everything. A down to earth, truly humble man of the people.

A perfect world of beauty will certainly be our reward. I am Victor, I am twice as full of hubris and idealism as House, and this is why I am better than him. Why? Because unlike him, because I say so. Buy it and give me more power for that reason.

Thanks! I'd like to see Martyr's response too, he'll tell me if I missed something or misinterpreted something about House in my post.

Kinda stopped caring at this point. Most people here seem to refuse to read posts longer than one sentence.

Anyway. Order, genius, pre-war business CEO, sixy moustache, etc.

I wouldn't focus so hard on the space ship part. I think a lot of it is just a general 'Imagine, with my plans going this way, why we very well could ____' and such. Same thing Caesar and NCR do.

@Legend- There is no good or evil, just shades of grey. If you steal crops from a struggling farm to feed a starving village, you're steal stealing from a struggling farmer.

You could compare them to a Zebra.
Is it white with black stripes or black with white stipes?

I wish I could make that rhyme somehow.

I don't believe he has. Is House going to be able to travel to the stars himself? Doubtful, and he seems to have a particular fondness for Vegas. I have no doubt he himself will remain on Earth and thus will continue the rebuilding effort here.

Also, while I don't doubt that House may be able to build spaceships, I have reservations that the colonization of another planet is a feasible idea in the timeframe he gave. That would be an effort of an unprecendented magnitude, and I don't believe any faction is even close to achieving such a thing.

Actually the US ditched the spaceship thing when it was destroyed. We are not sure if House is even planning on using a spaceship since he is so focused on Vegas.

Im wondering what happens to the people who don't go on the spaceships, but i prefer independent because it's really open to interpretation, i think of it as my character controls the secruitron army and helps keep the peace while the smaller settlements govern themselves and interact and trade with eachother. Something that i think would be cool is if other nations formed with cesar's legion and ncr (i.e. great khans and new cannanites started up their own) and new vegas kind of became the cultural capital of the known world similar to the role florence played for a large chunk of the Renaissance.

The reality is that Independant suggests the Courier DOESN'T become the 'ruler'. The Courier more or less goes off on his own, and Yes-Man watches over the place as the main AI. Although in the long term I don't see indie as being the best. Because the Three Families will be the power houses of the region, and without a Mr. House figure to watch them (Yes-Man isn't qualified like House was), either they'll fight each other financially/physically, or muscle other businesses in the region.

Indeed. I fail to see how people think that anarchy is a good solution to the problem.

People need some sort of authority to coral them. Going the Indie route is leaving too much to chance and trusting too much in the people of Vegas. Neither of which is a good alternative to House.

Yeah, the Three Families pretty much represent Vegas in it's La Cosa Nostra run period, with House being the corporate image that flushed them out of Vegas, the idea of letting three mob families have no one to keep them in check isn't a wise choice. People can say 'Lol, there's securitrons', there's more ways to cause trouble than outright gunfights in the streets.

Yes, Inleft knifebrawls out a building are much worse!

but seriously, House has been locked away for 200 years with no direct human contact. He is out of touch with the commoner.
Progress sure, but where is he gonna start? All vegas has is money and you can't build a house out of bottle caps (I've tried).
He should have waited for stability, then he could be more effective.

House would be a good choice for the Mojave. What I don't like is people who buy into every last little thing he says.

Spaceships? Why don't he just promise you faeries that fly out your butt and grant you wishes? Would you buy that, too?

At best case House creates a relatively benevolent dictatorship, and uses the money from the casino bit to start investing into other ventures with those he believes show promise.
He in effect becomes the grand sugardaddy of Vegas, over the next few decades.
The majority people of Vegas gleam off the tertiary benefits from the deal just by being close around, mostly.

But all that "world of tommorrow" stuff? Give me a break people.
House has a very big ego. He's a dreamer used to being a superrich multinational businessman once. That's part of his character.
He isn't a superhero.

Things will improve, debatably best of all choices. Just not what people expect out of him based on his own pride-inflated claims alone.


Now that said, the morality of it?
I can't really fault him overly to be honest. I like freedom a lot. A Lot. The Mojave though was just tribal caveman type stuff before he came around.
A guy with a robot army calling the shots with some sense of order, I would suppose is admittedly, a little better than people running around eating each other I guess. He doesn't bother people too much. They can always leave.

He could be worse. Could be a guy that claims he's some Roman god and nails people to poles.

I can't tell if you're intentionally being dull edged or not. Caps buy resources, NCR tries to muscle people out of their resources. You can only push people around for so long before they push right back. Vegas is the perfect con, always has been. What better way to rob people than to have them throw their wallets at you? House has a myriad of wealth, wealth that he's used to buy resources to build those walls around Vegas. As for 'the commoner', I don't care about one insignificant person. Small sacrifices for a larger future.

Yes man describes that you run the strip, maybe not like house did but you really just keep the peace and make sure everything is running smoothly, and the three families won't attack eachother because of the securitrons, but it's really just open to interpretation because all the ending says is that you support the ideals of independence, so my guess is that the courier has yes man do the day to day (making sure the securitrons are doing what their supposed to, running hoover dam, etc.) and will intervene if he has to.

You can't achieve progress for Humanity without Humanity.
And whose he gonna' buy resources off? Legion won't trade, NCR is running low and you won't build a city out of scrap metal and tin cans.
The walls are made of bits and bobs, nothing more.
And if the NCR collapses? What will house do then? He will be all alone with his caps.

If he said when I first met him "I will have farms producing food enough for ten times the population of vegas by the end of the year, Everyone will have a house made concrete and a fresh water supply in 5 years, I'll have schools and hospitals in 10 years....etc" I would be supporting him now.
The sad thing is he could have actually done that.

House couldn't do ANYTHING during New Vegas, he was dealing with TWO foreign invaders, the NCR and the Legion. As for farms, he DOES, that sharecroppers farm likely will be abandoned along with the rest of the NCR controlled occupation areas. Also, I don't see NCR collapsing if House wins. Kimball and his war hungry trash are thrown from political office, and NCR starts securing their own borders instead of blindly expanding. Also, you're insane if you believe ANYONE can reasonably achieve those goals in 5 years time.

So how is humanity supposed to make progress if they can't even build houses with a huge labour force?
If you can't get on the first step of the ladder, don't reach for the top.

Stop taking what I say out of context. If you expect everyone in Vegas to have a brand new home with central air, fresh water, food, and all that in five years in a post apocalypse society, you're delusional about the state of the world.