Finally someone who gets it. I agree fully. I had all these big smart plans when I leveled up, thinking how I could get maximum "profit" of the attributes...

The problem with Attributes is that they had too much of an impact on you instead of the skills. Not to mention that the whole +5/select 3 attributes at levelup system was broken as hell. I would've loved a Fallout 3 type Attribute system but Beth scraqed that idea. We'll have to wait and see if Perks can truly replace attributes.

There are more than just Health, Magicka, and Stamina. There's also the three stat's recharge rates, as well as Damage Bonus, movement speed, attack speed, stagger chance, and similar things. I think the attributes will still effectively be there, but they just won't be hiding behind stupid names.

Strength is a carryover from D&D, where it governed more than just Damage. However, The Elder Scrolls lack the level of interaction with the world that Pen-and-paper games have. No need to be able to track the ability to kick down a door, raise a portcullis, break free of chains, or the like when the game engine doesn't have the ability to let you do that out of specific scripted moments.

Likewise, Endurance lost all real meaning once it only governed Hit Points and Stamina, since it no longer played into poison resistance, death from massive damage, or chance of catching a disease.

So Diablo and Dungeon Siege is considered as "bad" RPG now? What?

I know people are complaining how this brings TES closer to action RPGs, but actually TES was always closer to action RPG in this regard. Many people said that attributes should be chosen at the beginning at they should rarely change. Thing is, none of the TES games had this, and I don't think they're planning going this way. Attributes were counted between 1 and 100 and you could raise them every level, that is hardly static.
Also they were kinda redundant, as they mostly did the same things skills were doing, like there was a skill about how much damage you do, how fast you are and how strong your magic is. The difference between a skilled strong and weak characters was minimal at best. So if they were about to fix attributes without removing them, they had to make it more relevant, but for that skills would be hurt.

Overall it just sounds to me people want attributes back just for the sake of it, like they were sacred and untouchable or something...
Attributes are used mainly to differentiate between characters, to make them unique. Some concerns come up how with this system there will be less variety, but I don't think so. With attributes, similar characters would still have similar attributes, like a warrior would always have high strength, a mage would always have high intellect. With this system warriors would have high weapon skills and pick perks mainly from there, mages would have higher magic skills and pick perks from there...
As for the modding concern, I really don't see the problem. Just adapt, use something else. Everything else is also changed, so you have to consider those too...

well morrowind didn't have any multipliers, yet still had attributes, and that worked just great.

Yes it did had it, it nearly worked the same way as it did in Oblivion...

The "problem" with attributes in OB was level scaling. Plus nobody made you have to get +5s at every level up, it wasn't required and your the one that wanted to obsessively max all attributes. I never maxed all attributes in any ES, with any character.

^^^This
I never calculated how and when level up too. I leveled up when I leveled up.
So if you break game by your intended actions don't blame game or system, ok?

So how you access from game such parameters in easy but detailed way?


Did you know there was many mods thats add such attribute checks?
In form of attributes we have easy manageable by magic effects and scripts and displayable in UI parameters as fundamental basis for mods, id devs cannot figure out how use attributes properly and completely lose ties thats synergy mechanic thats does not mean other cannot find proper use for fundamentals.

Thats nearly as you say is really big difference, in Morrowind attributes at last have more visible ties and there also was multipliers for derived attributes what Oblivion lose, in Daggerfall having low attributes was dangerous since there was dead from zero in attributes, Oblivion implementation of attributes was final point of degradation

By paying attention to what's happening, and not staring at a spreadsheet?

Yes. I have yet to find one that doesn't detract from the game more than it adds.



You are misremembering Morrowind. It was exactly the same, except some attributes had other effects (Willpower giving innate magic resistance, for example).

I'd love a link to this spreadsheet people apparently relied on for Oblivion/Morrowind.


and for the ******ing upteenth time OBLIVIONS level scaling, Made you (if thats what you care about) watch how you were leveling your character because other NPC's leveled with you by the game, barring any form of accomplishment because they leveled the best way possible. and if your spreadsheeting in Morrowind, like Oblivion you could only f over your character because you failed at picking Minors and Majors skillsets -that- stopped you from leveling, THOSE ARE GONE so why please why oh why are poeple trolling about how glad they are that Attributes were gone, when all these ******** years it wasn't even a damn complant why?


Todd did not state there is anything under the hood, ever, period, the only "attributes" are H/M/S and I've already wasted my hand stamina typing how you do not represent strenght increase from health increase per level and Perks (because todd did not say raising health does so and so....he just said it raises health) If I raise strenght for one handed Perks and Im running around with a Warhammer, please tell me why my Hand to Hand doesn't send enemies flying despite all my training with a War hammer? oh I have to pick perks for that too?


exactly -how- is that Organic?


don't pass that Garbage about how peolpe haven't played the game yet and don't know what they are talking about, while at the same time saying how Good it will be and anyone who thinks otherwise is irrational, no Attributes no spell making and various other issues were seen as early as DECEMBER, you do not need insight to see things aren't adding up its right there......and I love how people who critic and question aree whiners and complainers, and people who blindly praise the game are Fans, lol so because im calling up things, Im not a Fan? bwaahaaa

They should have just had a Fallout type attribute system.

There must be remark attributes counted between 40-49 as about average and all from above goes as benefits all below average as penalty,
problem was not in attributes system but in 5+5+5 leveling, changing it to system similar to nGCD does not mean removing attribute completely, another problem was in lose ties between skills and attributes what govern it as well in not equal effect from attributes in compare to skills.

As feature attributes was not redundant at all, there was flawed implementation of attributes, Strength for example give 50% bonus to damage while skills can give 200% I think making such coefficient more equal is more logical way to fix something then axing, so there will be difference between strong and skilled, besides why skills are going to be hurt if skills are work in synergy with attributes and are governed by them, so if 100 Strength give also 200% damage thats will be visible impact.


Attributes work with skills and perks well, besides with attributes we can create diverse characters not all warriors need to be strong Short Blades for example was governed by speed expand them with rapiers, thieves have intelligence as governing attribute for security actually make it useful for them, there was many mods thats use fundamentals for modeling awesome features what devs afraid to add.


Did you mod something before?
Yes of course we always can adapt but will be new system equal in all possibilities to classical, unless game not released and I cannot check it by self, I will remain skeptical, and you are not dev to guarantee thats system still versatile as before even without fundamentals.

really?? I guess the lack of level scaling allowed me to not really care about morrowind multipliers...

That would make it even more redundant.
There shouldn't be two different entities that does the same thing at the same rate.

And skills would be hurt, either by the removal of weapon skills for example, or by changing skills to be completely made of perks, with no numerical value...


That hardly changes things. Characters using Short blades will have high speed, ones using heavy armor and shield will have high endurance, thieves that use lockpicks much will have high intelligence and agility...

Again, it all falls down on mainly the skills.

Well I think you misunderstood me, I'm asking you not about visual indication of current character parameter, but about how you will bring into calculation an effect,
you know how work movement speed calculation in Oblivion for example
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Movement_Formulas
It has many variable parameters there is three of them for example
Speed Attribute, Athletics Skill, Wear no armor and equipment weight
Speed can be changeable in game with spell effects in both positive and negative way and leveled from athletics.
Thats easy way to modify such parameter, sprinting is not equal replace to modeling such feature since sprinting does not increase speed gradually in exponent, it more like doubled standard ruining speed with constant fatigue drain, in such cases we cannot create potion of Speed thats increase speed of mage who dont have much fatigue, unless there will be easy manageable median to modify such variable or potion will be scripted.



Well how understood thats?
I think mods like Lock Bash Omega and Duke Patricks - Combat Archery definitely add features does they detract something? I don think so.



Not they wasn't exactly the same because certain skills have great ties to attributes like alchemy and enchanting for intelligence,
intelligence dost yield large bonus to Magicka instead there was Fortify Maximum Magicka multiplier xINT what was removed from Oblivion, willpower give resistance in Daggerfall having willpower lover average give magic weakness, with mods such features was returned into Oblivion, now when attributes are gone, perks are skill based and there is no evidence of general perks and traits under big question how such feature can be returned in logical way?

Agree it would've solved a whole lot of problems.

What problems? A few forum members voicing their displeasure with the new system?

There is very little info out on the gutted attributes system:

- stat bars are supposedly attributes now - fine, whatever

- perks cover skill specifics

- no detailed info on derived values such stat renewal rates, encumbrance, balance, etc.

- no info on things attributes could have governed (like eyesight)

- no info on skill interactions (strong but unskilled is still better than weak and unskilled, no?)

Given Beth's past history of cutting out things and limiting gameplay rather than fixing and expanding leads many of us to pessimistically look at the lack of info as pointing towards that possibility that they ruined/cheapened character development by relying too much on the fakery of perks. It is possible they just have not released full info on this. Maybe... :confused:

I love the new system I'm just concerned about losing all the attributes and just going with 3 status attributes at level up. I'm not adovacting going back to Oblivions ridiculous attribute system, I would've liked what they did with Fallout's attributes but the current system will work but we will have to wait and see.

Attributes could be implemented like in Fallout, i.e. almost constant in the game, so that they would not induce us to grind to maximize them.

And they could affect our character progression, and our affinity for the different skills.

I'm going to mod them in like that.

How exactly since thats make attributes mean something as well allow model talented persons thats have natural abilities like large Strength, so how exactly they will become redundant if they will have equal to skills outcomes, and in such cases having trained skill + increased governing attribute for such skill will work in synergy skilled with axes orc with high Strength will have 400% additional damage while just skilled elf will have 200%?
Where is exactly redundancy while skills and attributes work in synergy not against each other?



In such cases advantage of attributes become even more visible if add to non numerical perk bonus in effect based on attribute, like armor ignoring perk can have additional damage bonus from Strength, or critical hit have bonus from agility and speed.


Thats changes things well since for example such thieves can become mage in easier way, and skills cannot represent natural abilities, skills are knowledge what you receive almost nothing can take out such knowledge from character, attributes are our natural abilities we born with them and then develop them, we can lose them easily and thats will strike on skills, be capable do something and actually know how to do something thats different things.

TES is one of the few series that will probably be better off without the attributes. I'd hate it if they cut them in Fallout, but the attributes in TES have always just been in the way. You need to raise a bunch of certain skills a certain amount of times to raise the attribute. It just held you back especially with that awful level scaling in Oblivion.

No Classes will give us more freedom. So im satisfied they where terminated.