Caesars Legion is much more then a mindless army hellbent on killing anyone they see. The idea of Caesars Legion is to restore order to the wasteland and have a strict but efficient rule over the land even if it means using the most horrid tactics to achieve that goal. The Wasteland is an uncivilized place full of killers and monsters, the NCR offers these people a home as long as they pay the right amount of caps whereas Caesars Legion kills them and enslaves the people who can actually benefit there society.

No, they shun technology.. Well apart from Caesar himself apparently.. The hypchrisy of having his own personal auto-doc when his soldiers aren't even aloowed so much as a stimpack..
And it's not hard to estimate the Legions arsenal, at all.. They have what you see, a few veterans with some good weapons and the rest using melee weapons.
Or you could pretend like they actually have factories etc that make their own weapons etc, even though they don't have anything that even remotely resembles this at the fort, where you'd most expect it..

Fixed.

The auto-doc is a gift for people who perform extraordinary tasks, not Caesar's personal doctor that everyone's fighting to use. Besides, it doesn't even work. People who still think that the auto-doc makes Caesar a hypocrite just doesn't fully understand the Legion.

Regarding weapons, the Legion isn't some small time raider band, if they want something, they're definitely gonna get it. Especially weapons.

Since WHEN, that auto-doc belong to Caesar alone, now you're just making things up lol

RE weapons, if that were true then they wouldn't have most of their forces brandishing melee weapons would they?

It belongs to Caesar, no doubt, but if I remember correctly from my Legion playthrough he also utilizes it as some kind of reward tool.

Nope, don't think so.

I'll have to check up on it, but if I'm wrong I'll happily admit so.

Still regarding weapons, it's some-what complicated. Some have firearms, some don't. The recruits are limited when it comes to equipment but that's simply because that's how the Legion run its military. It's hard to discuss because it's not really addressed in lore.

Again since WHEN? This has happened once, with Lanius.. Enemies are killed or used as slaves. Their actual fighting forces comes from slave babies and captured infants. To say otherwise is once again just making stuff up..
As for cities, we know of one, in a obscure collectors book. We don't even know if is anything more than a bunch of tents and some slaves working in a corn field..

Dude do you really think there are just slaves and soldiers in Legion lands? Did you even listen to any of the stuff Legion members have said? If the Legion was just slaves and Legionaries don't you think Dale Barton would of been captured and enslaved. If the Legion didn't have actual citizens and cities then please tell me why they have a currency? If they were just an army they wouldn't need a currency. Your talking out of your ass here get your facts straight before you start bashing other people.

The female citizens, baby mommas and teachers must be treated all right though right?
There is civilization beyond legionnaire and slave since they have traders and their own currency so citizens must exist, both male and female.
And baby mommas, well, it isn't exactly a good thing for the baby to force a pregnant woman to work their ass off nor do I think that it's a good thing for the baby if the baby momma is chained up at a bed either.
So I think that their breeders are treated all right, if not, the babies might come out.... Faulty.
And teachers must be the women who teach the children about stuff before they are fit to start training to become legionnaires. (IIRC some women are teachers.)
Now this is just speculation but still, I doubt "every" women is treated like dirt in Legion Land.

I remember 4 slaves, the Weathers family which is going through process and are currently "captures" which means their final destination and treatment when the get there is unknown.
Then we have two slave woman carrying a crapload of stuff on their backs, these women are treated badly, but who knows? Maybe they are doing it because they've refused to work and tried to run away. (This is pure speculation but I hope that within the Legion community the slave class system works like this: If you're good, you will get better treatment and might eventually become a citizen, if you're bad and work like crap then your treatment will get worse and you'll end up like these two slave girls. Why I hope it is like this is because then the slaves has no one to blame but themselves for getting such horrible treatment, while good little dogs will get far better treatment.)
Then we have a little girl, I haven't talked to her so I don't know what there is to her.
Then there's Siri, and she seems to be treated all right, she makes them healing powders and she don't look like she's in pain or anything. (Physically that is, mentally? I dunno, haven't talked to her for a while so can't tell whether her voice is full of despair or not.)

Still, the only four slaves I've seen are the four at The Fort and the captures at Cottonwood Cove.
Might be some more slaves at The Arena, but that was quite a long time ago since I fought there and their only purpose is to die by the players hands anyway.

Point is, in the game we have 1 citizen, 3 captures, 2 prisoners, 4 slaves and a crapload of legionnaires.
I know I'm rehashing the same thing but, how are we suppose to debate Legion when it's this biased?
Look at how many citizens of New Vegas and NCR there is, Legion is... Incredibly difficult to defend unless one allows speculation.

I don't like slavery, I find it to be horrible.
But this is the post apocalyptic wasteland and look how places are without order, one example is a place we had a whole game to, Capital Wasteland.
Look at how that place fared without any government or nation to uphold law and order.
It fell apart.

Now, what if NCR fell apart?
What would happen?
Well, different groups would seize the opportunity to strike less protected towns in order to take their stuff.
And what are those groups called?
Raiders.

If NCR falls then a lot of settlements, towns, cities, communities, villages and tribes will be without protection and raiders will seize the lands once again.
The connection that the lands had with each other will fade away as everyone tries to isolate themselves again.
Production will not come to a halt but it will slow down immensely.

So.
Why do I believe in Legion?
Cause they bring order.
They bring order to it's lands through brutality.
And guess what?
It works.
And here's the next thing, if Caesar dies then Lanius takes over.
It Lanius dies then Lucius will take over.
If Lucius dies then I'm sure Vulpes Inculta would take over.
No matter how many times you try to kill Legions leader the legate will always become the new Caesar.
The Legion cannot die.
It's way to do things might change depending on it's leader.
But Legion's structure will remain the same and they will continue to conquer until they've engulfed the entire West Coast.

So why do I believe in Legion?
Cause they won't fall.
They will never fall.
And they will bring order through brutality.
It will take many years of blood, pain and tears but in the end it will be better since everyone will be under one nation.
And no one, not a single person would dare to oppose them.
No more raiders.
No more fanatics.
No more corruption.
In Legion I place my trust even if my fate is to become a baby momma.

If some slaves have to suffer for a secure civilization to be restored for future generations then so be it.
So I don't like what they do, I don't approve of their slaves, sixism, torture or crucifixion but I approve of what their long-term goal is.
See, there's a difference.


[EDIT]
To clear a couple of things up.
Legion will never fall: No, I don't believe it will ever fall, the morality might start to go on a downward spiral if 5 Caesars in a row are killed within a couple of years but I don't think that Legion will easily abandon their new religion. I mean, they're willing to "die" for Caesar, no questions asked, just die if it served Caesar, so I doubt they would ever fall, the only faction that "could" kill Legion entirely is NCR if they got their [censored] together (Which I find unlikely) and MWBOS.

And we don't know about Legion's entire culture so who knows, maybe their civilized areas have little to no sixism, torture and crucifixion which strengthens them even more IMO.

Well that's the thing, I don't care about "me".
That's the whole point of why I like Legion.
If I were to be selfish and think of my own comfort then I'd say NCR or House.
But I don't care about me.
I care about the west-coast.
Not just in the present (2281) but the future of it as well.
If I have to become a slave for the world to be a better place in 10, 30, 60, 100 or maybe even 200 years from now then so be it.
So my will?
My wishes?
My goals?
My comfort?
It's all about me, my selfish reasons for wanting to live.
And I'm not important, what is important is the future.

If Legion didn't take the Dam full on I could see an alternate way for them.
They took the south by taking over Nelson and Cottonwood Cove and by killing Searchlight with radiation.
They could easily take the North but sending rafts over the lake during night and take Bitter Springs.
And they have the Khans from the west that supports them as well.
So even if they don't take the dam full on I could see them surrounding NCR from all sides and cornering the Dam and taking it that way.
Quite frankly, it seems like a much better tactic than just charging ahead like they do in the final mission.

Well, I was thinking like, what if there is a class system and reward/punishment system?
Maybe not for Legion but for another slave using society.
A higher class of slave is still a slave but he/she might be treated a lot better and get a way more comfortable assignment.
While a lower class slave is one that has to walk around in the mud carrying tons of equipment and eventually break their back.

So now, if you're a good little dog, and do what your masters tell you to do, and you do a good job, they might take a liking to you and upgrade you in class.
You might get a better assignment or just treated better generally.

While if you're a disobedient little vermin then they will whip you and punch you and forcefully intercourse you and stuff.

With this system you only have yourself to blame if you get treated badly.
Sure you're still a slave and sure slavery is wrong, but if you're a good slave you'll get treated better.

Since we haven't seen a Legion town and only heard "some" of how their slaves are treated generally this is what I would like to see for Legion in a DLC in the future.
We would have slaves that are treated good and those that are treated bad but it's their own fault for being treated bad in the first place.

So, Legion.
Another take on them is this: We live in a civilized world IRL, where as NCR and House represent what is familiar to us.
So lets say.... There is a tribe IRL which is filled with cannibals, they eat their foes flesh as they believe it strengthens them.
Why?
Religion perhaps?
Anyway, that is every day life to them.
Where as "not" eating humans is every day life to us. (Well, for most of us here anyway.)
So think about it.
If you were born into the Legion you wouldn't be "brainwashed", you'd just live in a world that is familiar to you.
It isn't bad.
It's home.
It's who you are, it's what your beliefs are.
Legionnaires that are born into the Legion are not evil at all, they live in world where what they do is perfectly normal.
So again, it's about perspective.
Since we all live in a civilized world IRL it's easier for us to sympathize with those that represent it the most.
But it does not make the Legion bad IMO.
It makes them of a different world.

Yes, they do enslave a lot of people, but we only have 4 slaves to go by which reside in The Fort which is a military camp.
We don't know how they generally treat the majority of slaves in their civilized locations.
So generalizing Legion by the account of a dozen people or less?
It's a bit premature.
On the other hand, we can't justify speculation all the time either.
So on the slave part, Legion shouldn't really be touched, because we know extremely little of how it actually is.

They do kill people, but one needs to look at who they kill.






I can understand why they did kill most of these people, I don't like it, in fact, I think it's horrible anyone has to die really.
But I understand why they had to die.

Citizens.
What do we know?
We know they watch over Primm, we know they peacefully lord over some of the people in The Strip, we know they have a trader in The Fort.
But we don't know "how" the lord over their people, we don't know "how" many got to stay citizens and why they were allowed to be that.
We have no idea of what a civilized Legion is really.

So why do I support Legion even though I know very little of their citizens?
Cause they seem better than NCR.
Until I see that Legion treats their citizens like absolute crap I will still support them.
Cause while we don't have a lot of hard facts about them being treated well we also don't have any hard facts of people being treated badly either. (citizens)
So it might be blind support but opposing the Legion and saying they're wrong is also very blind.
All comes down to speculation about it.

Except it is addressed in their lore. They shun technology, yes this includes robots and computers, it also includes the facilities to mass produce ranged weapons.
Their grinding stones that they have all over the place aren't going to do anything except sharpen their machetes..

Once again, they don't shun technology, they shun reliance on it. Utilizing robots and computers is relying on something they can't do themselves.

But if you absolutely insist on taking gameplay into this, then how come during the final battle I see Legion troops using AMR's, marksman carbines, brush guns, thermic lances, chainsaws, hunting shotguns?

That and they appear to use radio communications, do the quest for the women in Forlorn Hope; she says that the Legion spotted are most of the time not there, not only indicating that the Legion intercepts communications but also that they can communicate with away patrols through radio too to tell them to get out of there.

Once again, they don't shun technology, they shun reliance on it. Utilizing robots and computers is relying on something they can't do themselves.

Nope, don't think so.

The Legion crucifies people. For fun.

Now why on Earth would a woman POSSIBLY hate the Legion?

But seriously. The Legion protects their citizens. Caesars Legion is not his territories. There are two casks, one is the Legion itself, IE the armies, and then the citizens under the Legion. I'd imagine it's no different than NCR running Primm. In fact, look at Primm when the Legion runs it, it is kept very safe and secure from any foes.

It's okay for NCR to use slaves though, their http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Jerkass