So a shadow government than? How can the governemnt be Enclave and yet not Enclave? They clearly call themselves "The Enclave" in Fallout 2 and their damn base is Control Station Enclave.

There is a guy in San Francisco that said the Enclave were nothing but rich powerful nut jobs and not the Government, which is why he left the Enclave.

So they cut $10 Billion Dollars from Vault 0, that money then disappeared why? I thought Poseidon Energy built Control Station: ENCLAVE a front-company for the Shadow Government after all; otherwise what purposes do corporations serve, especially when the plan is too take control after the nuclear war when the idea of people getting up and going to work is madness and the corporation therefore no longer has a use.


I believe I provided the quote that demonstrated the exodus of all government CoG bunkers to the West Coast. Frankly whether the Enclave was a Shadow Government or not the "real" government would still have CoG bunkers around the U.S. anyway.

It suggests something spooky and mysterious, like calling something "The Company" or "The Organisation" or even "The Syndicate" which is what they were apparently based on.


Not really. The "theory" - or rather lack of one - is that the Enclave is an entirely post-war entity and did not exist in any form before the war - or even after it as it's just a name any how; Enclave must have been really vain to name their Oil Rig after them. Did this secret Shadow Government have business cards and boardmeetings too? How can you have an organisation, seperate to the U.S. Government, that has everyone in the U.S. Government as members? That doesn't even make any sense.

They likely developed an identity which was a result of spending years and years and years on one facility.

Ie. we come from the "Enclave" thus we are "the Enclave."

Or more reasonably, the United States designated the post-war operating government as "The Enclave of the United States of America" in the sense that they would be the "ark" or "enclave" of the United States in a hellish post-war world.


So we can trust a deserter to give an unbiased opinion?


Exactly.

Meaning the point is null and void regardless.

No; The Enclave are gone. Welcome to reality guys, the Enclave forces have dwindled to nothing.

The Brotherhood is soon to follow (the next game should be the BoS' final show up..)

Poseiden Energy built and oil Rig. They didn't build something that was connected into all the Vaults and a bunch of military facilities. The Enclave needed the money to retrofit the Rig.

They call themselves the Enclave. A.Ron Meyers was ex-Enclave that tells us they aren't the government. They are rich powerful nut jobs.

You guys wheather you think so or not support the idea that the Pre-War government were the Enclave. Which means the Enclave can be anywhere in United States, World or beyond.

What the Enclave just formed after the Great War? The Government Build Vault Zero and the 122 Vaults, turned them into social experiments and then built Control Station Enclave. Then after the Great War they got together and said "hey how about we call outselves the Enclave and do nothing to rebuild America for 164 years." Seems pretty far fetched to me.

No it doesn't. I'll repreat Mr. Enclave's statement.

"Frankly whether the Enclave was a Shadow Government or not the "real" government would still have CoG bunkers around the U.S. anyway."

Now would you say the legitimate government is "anywhere in the United States, world or beyond" currently?

I am not saying the Enclave didn't use the COG. I have said many times, those that were government used the COG after the Great War to form the new administration.

The legitimate government would have built bases all over America, which they did. There are called Vaults. Only some people (The Enclave) screwed with them, turning them into social experiments for their own goals.

Before the War the Enclave were a Cabal of rich and powerful people. After the Great War they used the COG to form the new administation and lived on the rig care free for 164 years. Then they discovered mutants and they decided to kill them all so they could continue living peacefully on their Rig.

The Real government would have rebuilt, done everything in their power to rebuild. The enclave don't do that. "Oh well they were all mutant so they didn't want to help" is Bull IMO.

A deserter you mean; you know when a guy hates something to the point he runs away into a hostile world? He typically doesn't have good things to say regardless. And rich? Yeah all the uniformed drones and gun-metal grey walls really gave that impression.


No it doesn't. Believe it or not, clandestine organisations that aim to control the United States - despite having seemingly limitless power anyway - aren't typically all that big; nor alone can I imagine that they alone would have the genetic diversity to survive as a civilisation. And I don't think I do; I think my idea is that the Enclave is a word, a name, sometimes used to informally refer to the United States Government after the Great War; I think it's nothing more than that.


Yup. The government also handed over PoWs for human experimentation, shot up a bunch of protesters in Hopeville, annexed a 1st World Country and invaded Mexico, tested FEV on it's own people and much more. I guess the Enclave caused all that then.

Only the Fallout 3 Enclave, thanks to Bethesda writing, calls themselves the Enclave all the time; in Fallout 2 is a colloquialism. Like how "America" is actually two continents and not the the country of the United States.

Except the vaults weren't intended for the government, they were intended for average citizens.

Bases such as Raven Rock were intended for the government, and Eden states those were emptied and that they rallied on the Rig.

"In the decades following the war, I watched as the remnants of the government retreated to the west coast."


That's actually a good anology.

Vault Zero was for the Government.

The Enclave in Fallout 2 call themselves the Enclave and they do it in Fallout 3. Yeah I agree Bethesda's writing svcks but it's still there. So the idea that by calling themselves "The Enclave" in Fallout 2 was just away of saying "America" doesn't hold water. They were calling themselves "The Enclave" because that is their name.

Also Control Station Enclave was build as an Oil Rig. Why would an Oil Rig need to be tapped into military bases and the Vaults? Clearly those changes happend to the Rig after it the Oil Ran out.

Like it or not Vault Zero is Canon. Vault Zero was to be the center for the Rebuilding of America. Control Station Enclave is where the Enclave watched their social experiments.

As for Meyers. So he is a deserter therefore we can't trust him at all.. So by that logic we can't trust the Brotherhood of Steels history, after all they are all deserters. There is also that guy in Fallout 3 who was also a deserter. Clearly the Enclave has a problem keeping people in their group that find out the truth.

There is alot of evidence to support the theory that the Enclave were a shadow government. The idea that the Enclave just happened to form after the Great war and then decided to nothing for 164 years seems far fetched.

Right I just want to understand this.

So the Enclave were a shadow government that knew nuclear war was coming and so had Poseidon Energy build an Oil Rig which they then embezzled money to have retrofitted - so they bought the Oil Rig then - into a facility connected to PosiedoNet - and through that NORAD etc. Then when the bombs fell these guys all fled to this Oil Rig after having sabotaged the real Government's Vaults so that they alone would have the power... okay.

1. What's the motivation? Power for it's own sake? Some motive.
2. So these powerful and rich men are now on this Oil Platform. Are there no engineers, people to presumably work and maintain the hydroponics, they built labs on there and manufacturing facilities despite the fact that they had nothing really to either research or manufacture.
3. What's the purpose of having high-ranking corporate members involved in the shadow government exactly? It's not like securing new energy contracts for the U.S. Government is going to be of use to the Shadow Government and whilst I can imagine the Shadow Government having their own operatives I don't think you need to have the CEO of Winchester Rifles in the Shadow Government to get a sniper rifle to assassinate someone with.
4. Why is the population of the Oil Rig so high now? Where'd all the soldiers, weapons, the War Room, power armour manufacturing facilities and everything else required to house and maintain the most powerful professional army in the Wasteland come from and why if these people had no interest in actually helping the mainland after the bombs?

POWs aren't Americans. The FEV tests at Meriposa was done on volinteers. Invading Mexico and Canada isn't the same as saying "Eveyone in America is mutated we aren't going to help them, in fact we are going to kill them."

The Enclave were the ones that didn't want to help the American people that survived because they were "mutated." The Enclave were the ones that designed the Vault Experiments.

The official governemnt didn't play any part in the expriments because they didn't know about them. The Enclave were a Cabal, they were in the Shadows ploting and scheming making sure their plans were cared out. The Official govermnent were mushrooms, kept in the dark and fed lots of [censored].

Yes, when it was renovated by the United States Government to serve as a post-war COG facility.


The "high level events" of tactics are canon. That likely includes Vault Zero, but doesn't include for what purpose it was built or the specifics of what occurred to it.

That 10 Billion taken from the Vault? May not be canon.


You mistake the general idea of desertion for someone who deserts from a particular organization.

If someone hated the Brotherhood and left it, are they are reliable source for information about the Brotherhood's goals?


Due to the horror of the testing (so much so that the commander went mad upon learning about it). I highly doubt that.

They were POWs. Not "volunteers."


Certainly not much of a government then.


Doing genetic tests on humans is right along that line of reasoning though.

First: If Mr.House could figure out the Great War was going to happen within a day of it happening, I am sure the Enclave figured it out as well. Maybe they learned it from House or stoll it from him. They decided to use the Poseiden Energy Rig. They then retrofited it with money they embezzled. Since the Enclave were made up of Civilians it is possible people from Poseidon energy just gave them the Rig and looked the other way. Just anothe abandoned Oil Rig.


To gain power and run things there way. With your theory that would be the same. We don't know the reason for the Vaults.


They hire the people needed to run the Rig. Rich people always take their servants with them. Rich people also have their own little armies of guards and support staff. They would have brought anyone they felt was needed for their goals. If they came up to you and said here is a millon dollars come do some research here, would you really say no?





They wanted power to do things their way. They were a Cabal, they were The Enclave.



It has been 164 years of doing nothing, population will grow. Yet even then no sign that they wanted to rebuild America.

Wow, the fact that you just tried to pull that Paladin_Dune level stunt on me proves this isn't going anywhere good anytime soon. By that logic no, you're just grasping at straws and making silly points; I believe that the people founding the Brotherhood of Steel and then recording the history of their organisation are entirely trust-worthy in regards to their own history. If you told me to ask an opinoin of the Brotherhood from a Brotherhood deserter who hated everything that they stood for I'd believe he'd tell me their techno-fetished cultists and high-tech raiders - despite niether being particularly accurate.


Are we really doing this? You're comparing the motivations of the pre-war "supposed" Enclave to the extremist fanatics we see in Fallout 2? Here's an idea maybe the jumpsuited drones don't really have the same beliefs as their pre-war ancestors. Perhaps there was cultural devolution as it were as time went by. Maybe the pre-war generation were like those in Vault 101 and told their children lies to keep them on the Rig. We may never know, but I guess the pure-evil, we've seen the mainland as mutant scum the second the bomb dropped makes sense too.

It's a pity, I liked that line . What experiments and why were they carried out? So Vault 15 had some cultural diversity, so what? What grand scheme is that playing into? What did the Shadow Government want? I thought that they wanted power, was killing their subjects part of that plan?

Dr Henry also hates the Enclave, is a deserter, yet you take his word.

Speaking of the good old Captain, whois a npc in FO2 that refers to them as a group called The Enclave btw, he also was not born on the rig. Sooo, where did he come from? Too old to be born at Navarro... so was he a recruit or did he come from another base?

If you random encounter with Enclave Patrol around Navarro, they will say you are trespassing on Enclave territory.

If you aggro Enclave guards in Navarro there are two different things they will say that identify them as the Enclave and as the Enclave as a group.

So...are you guys suggesting they took the name of their entire group from the rig, or does it make more sense that pre-war, they had their base built and named after them. Good thing the rig wasn't called Happy Oil....

Clearly Poseidon was heavily infiltrated by the Enclave...there is a underground base right at a Poseidon gas station, let alone the rig and the Poseidonet comp system.

The computer in Navarro also welcomes you to the Enclave, as you are supposed to be a new guy.

The BoS dude in San Fran will also go into detail about a group called The Enclave, who had ties to the pre-war government.

Like I also said, I would bet we will see more pre-war government influence in factions to come.

Abd yes, there would be COG bases and government bunkers, military bunkers, and possibly vaults all over the country. The only question is who actually used them? Technically, the BoS took advantage of such things. There could be some under Enclave control, and some under new faction control, and some that are destroyed or abandoned

I ignored the rest because you say Government I say Enclave. But this part. What I meant was the Brotherhood started out as United States Army. They openly rebelled against the Government. So by your logic about not being able to trust deserters, we can't trust anything about the Brotherhood of Steel.

As for the POWs still they aren't Americans. Big difference between the government testing on people from another country and their own people. And don't bring up crap about the STD test done in the 60s and 70s on black people. Big step from that to building Vaults each costing billions and then condeming thousands of people to death.

Then not helping anyone after the Great War. They didn't help and were never going to help any one in America.

This I believe is my last word on the subject and then I'm done with this debate. We aren't getting anywhere.

I can take Dr. Henry's word because he's not making an ideological point about the group which relies largely on his opinon. If Dr. Henry were to say "the Enclave are a bunch of evil bastards" I wouldn't take his word.

Instead, he relays perfectly reasonable information concerning the status of what he did with the Enclave. If a Brotherhood deserter were to clearly outline his operations within the group, I'd think he'd be completely trustworthy.



Let me be clear. My point is that we can't trust people who HATE an organization and left, to give an unbiased, reliable opinion on the organization's goals and leadership. I trust you understand why this is.

Its not that "deserters" in general are untrustworthy and that somehow we can't trust the Brotherhood to give an account of their own group's history. That's not the case at all.

Let's say an NCR soldiers deserted the army and gives his opinion on how terrible the NCR army is and how moronic their leadership is. Would you trust that their opinion is well-founded and unbiased?

So you are saying Fallout 3 isn't canon? The call themselves the Enclave alot in Fallout 3. I agree Fallout 3 has bad writing, but in this case it is Bethesda saying "They care the Enclave."

So therefore they were also calling themselves the Enclave in Fallout 2.

Does he say he hates the Enclave? or are you just putting words in his mouth?

Maxson killed the scientists at Mariposa because he Hated what they were doing. Therefore he hated what the governemnt for which he served were doing, therefore (by your logic) we can't trust anything about the Brotherhood.

He says they are a bunch of rich nutjobs. I'd say that's quite a venomous statement.

Unless this "retrofitting" basically resulted in the construction of a new Oil Rig, the abandonned Oil Rig must have been the biggest in the world. 1000+ population, military facilities, Vertibird hangers manufacting...


You can't even think of anything can you. Just... power, raw authority which we apparently have no motivation to exercise.


And when the bombs dropped they pay them with what? Their authority is derived from what? The private armies which they can't pay anymore because money has no value?

They went to the mainland just after Fallout 1 for scouting purposes. You're Vault 0 theory holds little creedence either. 10 years is still a long time, know why there are over 90 CoG bunkers in the District of Columbia alone? Because the idea of CoG is that the Government is both immediately saved and is then able to act, CoG does not involve you going to sleep for 10 years. Who authorises a retalitory strike or any conventially military action? Who organises the national recovery effort - which we do know occured, read the Germantown Logs. Talks about refugee camps, national guard being deployed from as far away as Pittsbrough in D.C., these require human decisions and human orders.

Any government that would consider popping into a cyro-chamber for 10 years during the nations bleakest hour is as illegitimate as the supposed Shadow Government and their plans to do something asyet un-hypothesised with the power they gain.

And Maxson shot a bunch of government scientists, I say that venomous act says it all.

Then tell me what was the reason behind the Vaults and why they sat on the Rig for 164 years doing nothing. Tell me why the official united states government did all that and then decided to kill all the survivors in America after the Great War?

Power is a great reason. There there is also "Some men aren't motivated by money, women or power. Some men just want to watch the world burn."

"War. War never changes, since the dawn of human kind when our ancestors first discovered the killing power of rock and bone, blood has been spilled in the name of everything from God to justice to simple psychotic rage."

There doesn't always have to be a grand reasoning for a group to do something like what the Enclave did beyond simple power. They were a bunch of extremeist nutjobs.

But please tell me why the Official government of the people would go out of their way to kill their people and only save themselves and live on a Rig for 164 years?

That's not my point.

Look....Maxson can be relied upon to give a reliable account of his own factions history. Just because someone is a deserter doesn't mean we can't trust them with any type of information.

However, I'd say that we can't trust people who hate an organization with every fiber of their being to give an unbiased opinon on said organization. There, didn't even use the word deserter.


Survival.

The wasteland was full of raiders, radiation, mutation, and chaos. I sure as hell wouldn't want to step foot on it. Not with my family.

I'll stay safe and comfy on the Rig thank you very much.