Actually, even in Oblivon, it wasn't that tough to get to 100% chameleon, shield, reflect or absorb.

So it didn't settle it at all.
I agree, having separate gauntlets and boots is a bit too much, but at least separate pauldrons would be nice.
It's not so much about me wanting to mix pauldron types, as me wanting to have only the left one

Boots , yeah, but separate gauntlets and Pauldrens are the way to go. Oblivion was the only TES game not to have it. Besides, there are probably better ways to balance out enchanting.

Ooooh..... about that...
I'm sorry but those things aren't back in; and going by Beth's trends, I seriously doubt we have pauldrons... let alone separate ones.

I love how Morrowind had separate pauldrons, and I've always wanted to see this return for Skyrim. Please let it be true! :turned:

Beth really doesn't have a trend, TBH

Not a strong argument. Just because Bethesda is streamlining the skills does not mean they won't have Morrowind's apparel slots again.

Also, more evidence of more apparel slots:
The French magazine made a contradictory statement about apparel slots, saying something similar to "Armor will be in two pieces, torso, and legs, as in Morrowind." But that makes no sense, because Morrowind did not have it that simple. The quote said, "as in Morrowind" so I'm thinking even though it was a misunderstanding, they still meant the apparel slots would be like Morrowind's.

I would love more customizable options when it comes to armor and clothing... and both together. However, I won't get my expectations set too high. I'm kind of thinking that the outfits will work much like they did in Fallout. They all look really unique, some with only one shoulder pad, but they are all one item. I would love for this not to be the case, but again I don't want to get my hopes up too high. At the very least, if this is how they are going to do it, I hope there are a ton of clothes to get.

Then again, this is the elder scrolls, and if enchanting is a skill again, then it would make sense for most clothing items to be separate for different enchants. NO! Must... not... hope... too... much... AHHHH! :drool:

The shot of the Dovahkiin in the wallpaper has been completely mirrored. His armour is an identical mirror-image of the Dovahkiin's armour in the trailer and he's wielding his main weapon in his left hand. If anything, I'd say this is proof against separate pauldrons, because the armour is so perfectly identical, right down to the shoulder pad(s).
Of course, it could just be that they designed the Dovahkiin in the wallpaper to look exactly like the one in the trailer. But if that was the case, why would they be using different weapon sets?

Morrowind to oblivion to fallout... you don't see a trend??

Another thing I've noticed is bracers. For example, in the shot of killing the guy in front of the river and the nirnroot, the player is not wearing gloves or gauntlets on his hand but his forearms are protected by bracers. Either we have a new forearm armor slot, or they are part of a set armor suit. Going by beths trends, I'd say the latter... which leads me to believe pauldrons would be as well.

It was a two-piece apparel system for Fallout 3 because that's how the Fallout series is. Pete Hines stated on Twitter that what works for Fallout's apparel system doesn't work for The Elder Scrolls apparel system.

I think the character on the wallpaper is most likely inversed (sword in the left hand and dagger in the right hand), but I sure hope you can wear different pauldrons in Skyrim.

So if your only argument against purportedly 'redundant' layers is the possibility for enchantment exploitation, wouldn't it make sense to just rebalance enchanting to take into account lots of options, rather than cutting customization options needlessly? So long as there are little to no negative consequences for customization, it's always a good thing to have more.

Is http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/8014/swordfight.png the same armour as mentioned with pauldrons?
'Cause in this in-game pic, he isn't wearing any. :shrug:

I know what you mean, but he totally isn't wearing a pauldron. It's a spaulder.

Well for those that keep saying "That's your opinion", fine I'll go with you and say it is my opinion but apparently it's BGS's opinion as well and is why they removed them, because of the enchantment abuse. That isn't speculation, that is a fact.

As for it being my only argument that they are redundant, I said that the fact of writing in extra slots into the game for items you won't see is a waste of development time if they aren't enchantable. You think it's cutting customization options needlessly when it isn't cutting customization options to remove clothes that go under the clothes or having separate bracers or legs (which the legs don't even make sense <_<). Why take the time to rework and entire system to fit a clothing system and THEN have to write in slots that won't be visible. That's not relevant customization, that's just adding slots in for the sake of nostalgia. People keep ignoring what I say and seem to think I keep saying leave it at Oblivion. Oblivion's armor system was fine, but as I said and people keep ignoring, it needs to be between Oblivion and Morrowind's because Morrowind's was ridiculous. The negative consequences as you mentioned, would be massively misplaced development time just so that you can have pants and a shirt under your armor, that's not a good use of development time when it can take away from the rest of the game. If they have extra time and can fit it in, go for it but not as it was in Morrowind where they are enchantable, which again comes around to why add them if you don't see them and they have no purpose.



That's not what Elder Scrolls is about at all. You aren't supposed to become some unstoppable god. Elder Scrolls is about "Being who you want, the way you want." not "become an unstoppable juggernaut so the game has no challenge". Now I'm going to stop you now before you say that you just said "Being who you want, the way you want." because that doesn't mean that they are supposed to leave broken features in the game, it means by the merit of the game, not keep in broken features, which BGS obviously agrees seeing as how they remove broke features when they become apparent.



Once again, BGS removed them for the very reason they are broken, it's not my opinion, it's a fact.... Daggerfall and Arena would be between Morrowind and Oblivion yes, which is what I said Skyrim should be.



That's not true btw. Separate pauldrons and gauntlets but when we start getting into bracelets and separate bracers and separate grieves (which makes no sense how you could have separate leg armor imo) it gets to be a little to unnecessary. There needs to be a limit at some point on what is needed or not.

The majority of gamers don't see becoming extremely over powered in a game like TES "Unbalanced or broken". To me that's the option of most RPGs, to become as powerful as I can. If I chose to spend my time to achieve the status of a god, so be it. When it comes to balance in an RPG, there can only be so much until it starts to get boring and annoying, much like Oblivion after you pass level 25.

Okay, but what I, and many people, find necessary is what Morrowind had.

Which slots are you saying were useless (from either Morrowind or Oblivion)? I'm all with you about items that you can't see. I only ask for some separate pauldrons and gloves. I also like seeing a shirt under armor. Again, these are things you can see. Jewelry was done well in Oblivion.
Anything that adds (in this case, separate pauldrons, clothing under armor) customization is a fine use of development time. I like detailing a look. I never enchant, so I don't care if it's possible or not to enchant clothing.
If you're getting ganked by enchanters, just quest in a different zone. As someone has already said, I'd rather them adjust enchanting rather than reduce appearance options. I don't see why enchanting should affect it. Since we don't know how enchanting will work, I'll hope that it's adjusted and we've got more options again (rather than assume enchanting is still "OP" :violin: ).
It's still so weird to imagine someone who hates imbalance weep as they exploit the very feature that "breaks" the game. :shrug: I understand that the presence of such imbalance is disappointing, but don't highlight it, while shaking your head disapprovingly.

It is separate pauldrons and if it isn't does it really matter?

[img]http://img718.imageshack.us/i/separatepauldrons.jpg[/img]

Really? How do you know what the majority of gamers feel towards unbalanced or balanced? The option in all RPGs is to become as powerful as you can but that doesn't mean make it available to become so powerful your unstoppable even by an army of dragons and so forth, there are limits. Once again, this seems to be limited to the forums and not the vast majority. I for one despised Morrowind. It's plot was the best of all the games but it's gameplay and mechanics were severely clunky and exploitable just by using them, you didn't even have to go out of your way to exploit them. I first played Arena and Daggerfall as birthday presents and I was looking forward to Morrowind. It was a good game play through once, but I haven't played it through again and probably never will be able to because the only thing that drove me through the reprehensible combat was finding out how the story ended and how the side quests unfolded. I enjoyed Daggerfall and Oblivion far more and I didn't feel any loss going from Morrowind's armor system to Oblivion's because I found trying to get all the armor to fill all the slots to be tedious in Morrowind, Daggerfall had it right though I could do without crystals and bracelets. As for the game becoming boring after you pass 25, 25 was the "level limit" where your character was meant to stop. Just like 20 was where Morrowind was supposed to stop. The point wasn't to grind your levels up in the games, the point is to level as you play, thus by the time you got to 25, you should've had the game pretty much finished and ready to make another character. Now there are those that like to stick to one character and complete it but it's kind've obvious the character is going to get boring if you keep playing it endlessly because there is finite things to do before you run out of game. Then all it is, is slaughtering everyone which gets old after an hour of making the Imperial City a ghost town or deciding all the villagers of Seyda Neen weren't worthy of living anymore.

Look around you. Everyone here feels the same. All of my friends feel the same. Some people I play gears with feel the same. You can't say that all of them are all part of a minority. Why does balance matter in a single player game anyway? I'm not going to feel bad for the rat I just killed if I don't deem it "fair". You really found that tedius? To me it just sound like you want simplicity. And Daggerfall had more customization than Morrowind, so I don't know what you're saying here. And from what you're saying about Oblivion you really don't know how a lot of RPGs should work.

Wait, what do you mean about highlighting it? Do you mean I shouldn't bring it up and show that it's broken?

Frankly, this is all we need:

Helm, left pauldron, right pauldron, bracers, left glove, right glove, amulet, chest, legs, boots, cloak, two rings and wear robes over armor. That's it. I don't see a reason to wear clothing under armor when most of the armor will make the clothing invisible. It's taking away development time from a feature that actually affects the game. What more do you need when you have the armor slots I listed above and decals and armor recoloring? That's trillions of combinations, how many more do you need? No two characters will look alike unless you try to make them look alike, is that not enough customization?

[quote name='Sleign' timestamp='1298614163' post='17228750']
Wait, what do you mean about highlighting it? Do you mean I shouldn't bring it up and show that it's broken?

Frankly, this is all we need:

Helm, left pauldron, right pauldron, bracers, left glove, right glove, amulet, chest, legs, boots, cloak, two rings and wear robes over armor. That's it.

That's what everyone else was saying. The only thing I don't agree with is the shirt. I want the shirt under my armor, but just make it no enchantable.

These forums are not indicative of the majority in the least. As for balance in a singleplayer game, it's not about how it reflects to other people, it's about not overriding the content you created. Why spend months and months on content if your going to add in features where you just ignore the content basically? That's not good game design and BGS isn't going to do it and neither is anyone else. Morrowind had more customization than Daggerfall actually. Count the armor slots as you click them off on your character in Daggerfall, there is less because Morrowind had multilayered armor. As for not knowing how an RPG works, obviously you are thinking from the point of view of an MMORPG. Single player RPGs end eventually, that's a fact, so I don't see how I don't know how an rpg works....

Looking at that picture, I'm about 90% sure there's separate pauldrons.

please leave.