Apologies if this has already been addressed.

I just finished up the quest where you go through Kellogg's old memories to find the location of the Institute and in the memory where Kellogg takes Shaun from Vault 111, if you activate Kellogg himself or your cryopod (I can't remember which) he makes a statement to the effect of "I wonder if the old man knew what he was getting himself into when I took the kid).

That struck me as extremely odd, because when you are going through the memories, any time you activate one of the characters or objects, Kellogg speaks but he speaks as though he is alive in that exact moment. In other words, these aren't ruminations that Kellogg had at the moment he was experiencing those life events, but rather his commentary on the memories as though he were alive and with you. Furthermore, Kellogg references "the old man" at least twice. Once in the aforementioned memory and then again when he is living in Diamond City with synth Shaun at his side. The key is: he uses the term in a way that makes it seem like he is talking about the same person. He doesn't really seem to mark the difference between the old man he references when taking Shaun from the vault and the old man he references when sitting in his home at Diamond City. This implies, at the very least, that the person who is running the Institute when he kidnaps Shaun and when you meet him (the supposed) 60 years later are the SAME person. This would completely invalidate the theory that Shaun = Father.

My working theory at this point is we are going to see a DLC down the road where we learn that the real Shaun is still alive and cryogenically frozen in some separate facility. I think this for two reasons.

1. It would be a huge mind f--- and would easily propel the somewhat tepid story into the stratosphere. It would make the DLC a must own, so that's easy revenue, and, most importantly, it would work well with the ending of the main quest, no matter how you chose to play things out. If you left the Institute intact, it would be the perfect opportunity to turn on them for being psychopaths and if you blew them up, this serves as further vindication for that choice.

2. It would give the story a more unified and cathartic ending. Finding Shaun, aka "Father", did not feel like a particularly memorable event. In fact, the moment when you finally confront him was almost a little too predictable. I remember reading on the forums very early that the safest bet was that Shaun would survive and would become the anti-version of you. Making him the leader of the Institute just seems too obvious and too contrived. Plus, as many have pointed out, there seems to be something "off" about the Institute as a whole. No one ever justifies why they are making synths (besides we can), no one ever really scrutinizes why they would abduct just the child, when that whole vault was technically a source of DNA (plus one would think having more diverse samples would be a good idea; what if Shaun had some congenital disorder), and many other head scratching things besides. The motivations for the Railroad make sense, the motivations for the Brotherhood make sense, but the Institute always seemed to be masking some ulterior motive.

Releasing a major story themed DLC that took our perceptions and flipped them on their head would be AMAZING. It would, I think, seal up a lot of suspicions I have and could serve to reintroduce the Institute as a threat and could rebalance the scales in terms of the overworld population. For instance, the Institute is revealed as being a much larger organization that is trying to replace all life with this synthetic version and Father was really just a shrewd, psychotic old man who was in charge of the Commonwealth chapter. With the destruction of the facility under CIT, the Institute marshals its full strength and focuses it to come after you, and you have to rally your faction of choice to fight back. If you destroyed the Brotherhood, they make a reappearance in the DLC with a greater presence as well, in the hopes of getting revenge for their fallen bretheren. In other words, complete cluster f---.

Sorry my discussion got away from me, I meant to keep that concise and controlled. I just got really excited by the idea. What do you guys think?

Its just a classic misdirection. You assume he's referring to the same person, but then it turns out he's referring to separate individuals. Father's facial features change depending on the characters presets. Ergo, he's your son.

Kellogg even mentions that your son is "safe in The Institute". Which is the first major hint at Father.

Truthfully, I don't understand why people want this so badly. I understand its easier to kill Shaun when you believe he's someone else, but really, that's just a cop-out if you ask me. It would be way to easy.

It wouldn't explain why he trusted you so much to the point of blindly making you the director, turn a blind eyes on the shady activities you did with the Railraod, and defend you against the entire Institute. There is no way for him to behave so irrationally if he doesn't truly think you're his parent and trying desperately to get your affection.

Shaun is the real Shaun. Some may not accept it due to how harsh he treated you in the beginning and/or people expecting a kid to save, but for me, Shaun is basically still a kid inside. I was there to save Shaun, and in the end, I did.

That is true, I meant to mention that in my original post. It could be in fact that the previous leader was another "old man". It just seems odd that there wouldn't be any distinguishing of that in the way Kellogg refers to them. The facial feature changes also work in favor of Father being Shaun, but that itself could be misdirection on the part of the developers. Maybe Father is a clone of Shaun or something to that effect?

Two things:

1. That doesn't negate my theory. If Kellogg had knowledge of the real Shaun, he could still say that and be speaking a half-truth.

2. It is possible that Kellogg believes that Father is Shaun. For this theory to work, that has to be the active lie that is being told to everyone.

I don't want/need it to justify killing Shaun. I feel like the developers do that already by giving him cancer and through some of the things he says in dialogue. I just have trouble shaking the feeling that there is something else about the Institute. A lot of their activity is never addressed, specifically with the FEV lab, but the whole activity of the organization seems to have a sinister bent to it. They did something to secure the hatred of almost every Commonwealth citizen and Mayor McDonough is very clearly a plant by the Institute. Whether he was ever human is up for debate, but I have a hard time putting a friendly twist to the systematic replacement of human beings with synths. Makes no sense if the Institute is really out to preserve humanity. Their whole slogan "mankind redefined" feels like a hint at a larger picture.

Good to see someone actually make a feasible Shaun =/= Father theory. Flawed still, but at least it's based on something.

As far as the Old Man goes, the problem is the age. If he was an old man back then, he should not be alive now... unless he was a cyborg or a synth. However, Father is not a cyborg or a synth, which you can confirm by killing him.

As far as goals go, The Institutes's goal is well defined: they seek to continue advancement of technology and keep themselves safe. The Synths are important to them because their entire hierarchy depends on their labor (war, provisions, building, espionage...). I think the problem people have here is that everyone expected something big and evil from the Institute and the Synths, but got just a secretive bunch of scientists.

Original FEV experiments - judging by the recordings, the FEV is used to create Gen3 Synths (that red liquid in Robotics Lab is, I think, a version of FEV). This also explains why they needed pre-war DNA: FEV reacts differently to non-mutated and to mutated humans. Enclave tried to use this fact to exterminate all the wastelanders while for the Institute this would mean that they need pure DNA to successfully clone a human

Shaun's FEV Experiments - we don't know what Shaun wanted. Personally, I think he wanted to improve on gen3 Synths by making it possible for them to age. After all, much of his later activities were used to create Synth Shaun and I can see him wanting to make Synth Shaun a first gen4 Synth, aka a Synth who can grow like humans do. But of course, this is just my theory

Replacements - there is nothing special in this: it's used espionage and control. By replacing real humans, you can spy on others, conduct experiments (like with Warwick) and even control the society (like with the Mayor). In other words, nothing as exciting as one would expect

I do agree that the meaning of Mankind Redefined is left undefined (sorry for the pun). It makes sense for the Cyborg Project (their leader seemed to have some ideas of uniting humans and machines), but Shaun shut down that project. The only real hint we get is from Mama Murphy's vision in case you side with the Institute: "You're wearing a lab coat. You're standing with... men of science. Visionaries. Brilliant but misunderstood. I see a land marked up, like a great experiment. Each test a new beginning. Each sacrifice an acceptable loss. You will not be loved, but you will save humanity. However you choose to define it." Guess it might mean becoming a faction that can play God with the wastelanders.

Well, I'm sure we will find out more in the DLC. After all, the Institute sends a Synth to fire the Mayor of Diamond City... even though they are supposed to be destroyed.

I'd just like an interpretation of Father's motives that doesn't rely on him being Joker level crazy.

Understandable, but even if he's not your son, that still doesn't really make sense. Why have the player released at all? Why go through all the trouble of making this random guy The Director and giving him their unwavering support? Why keep up the charade even on his deathbed when he has no reason to?

Either this guy is really committed to the act, he's delusional and actually thinks he's your son, or he actually is your son.

Not to mention this charade requires the entire Institute (including Dr. Li, who while she can be a [censored], is not cruel) to play along with this. Dr. Li frankly seems to hate Father, why would she bother keeping this a secret?

It just raises way, way more questions than it would answer.

He isn't trying to get your affection though. Shaun is ultimately pragmatic (consider how unmoved he is by the fate of his own mother) so it seems odd that he would even really care about you at all.

I think you were released from cryo specifically to kill Kellogg. Maybe they thought he had outlived his usefulness and they needed someone to take him down. They knew that once you were free, hunting him down would be your M.O. After killing Kellogg, maybe the guy who is Father, who has cancer at this point, sees an opportunity to preserve his central function at the Institute, namely the advancement of their goals no matter what, and so formulates the plan to have you replace him. If you are convinced that he is your son, it stands to reason that you would champion his goals and dreams. He was probably banking on you having a very strong sense of loyalty; I mean you would think a guy who is supposedly intelligent would know how to predict people's motivations and manipulate others.

Regardless, it seems odd that he would choose the end of his life to unfreeze you in an attempt to have catharsis between the two of you. As old as he is, why bother, unless he had some ulterior motive. Especially with the way he says releasing you was at first just an experiment and the casual way with which he addresses the fact that you could have easily been killed. I don't know. It seems off.

That doesn't really make any sense. Why would a lawyer turned-stay-at-home Mom or a soldier who may have just sat in the officers tent drinking bourbon throughout the duration of the war be better than a squad of Coursers at killing Kellogg? If that was *really* the intent. Granted, it doesn't make much sense as it currently is either, but at least then you can argue that Father never really expected anything to happen.

Also, champion his goals and dreams? Why not pick anyone in The Institute. Everyone basically worships Father. Get Dr. Holdren or Dr. Fillmore, or hell Dr. Loken to continue Father's legacy? If anything, bringing in an outsider who's never even seen The Institute before is the absolute worst possible way to guarantee a legacy. Likewise, what if the ruse was found out? Now you've got a pissed off parent with access to The Institute to deal with.

I don't have time to read through and digest everything in the thread at the moment (I will, I promise) but one thing I want to point out: it appears there was, in fact, another "Old Man". His name was Dr. Walker, if I recall correctly. Kellogg was Walker's pet project, not Shaun's. It was Walker who had Kellogg altered and thus, I assume it was Walker who directed Kellogg to find pure, unadvlterated DNA (the infant from Vault 111). If this is correct, then when Kellogg refers to the directives of the "Old Man" during the Vault 111 memory sequence, perhaps he's talking about Walker -- the previous Old Man. Maybe every Institute Director is nicknamed the "Old Man/Old Woman" as a term of endearment.

Later, when Kellogg and FauxShaun are in DC, the "Old Man" to which Kellogg refers would be the person we currently know as "Father".

I learned of Walker by reading Shaun's terminal.

((Edited to correct the name -- it's Walker, not Walter))

Someone ( I wish I could remember who) Suggested that putting baby shawn in a blender, and using the batter as a base would certainly make someone grown from it still have your features.... (heheheh)

But I do agree LT. Andronicus it does seem to be a stretch, unless the really DLC changes in.

I too would say NO (by NO I mean Yes shawn is Father now hehe)

Thank you! I don't necessarily want to try to prove this right, but I do want to talk it out until I can know for certain that I'm wrong. I feel like then I won't have to think about it anymore (curse whoever planted the idea in my mind).

As far as the Old Man problem, consider what I said about how Kellogg is speaking. He isn't addressing each event in the moment, but rather commenting on the events as if he were living at that exact moment. So when he is speaking to you and saying "old man" he is using the term he has attached to the director at the end of his life. So, it is entirely plausible that the "old man" he references in the Vault 111 memory is the same "old man" he references in the Diamond City memory, because that is how Kellogg views him, or rather, that is just the colloquial name for the director at that point. It would be the same thing as me talking about my old man when referring to my biological father; I could call him that when he's 25 or when he's 65, it's simply a nickname, not an indication of age.

The push to make them more and more human doesn't really pass any sensible scrutiny, that I can think of at least. I get they need bodies to fill the needs of their organization, but people were already aware that synths existed, masking them as human doesn't really gain you anything except the paranoid mistrust of every person in the Commonwealth. I feel like they could have easily just kept using Gen Is and saved a lot of time and misery for themselves. Making them a more perfect replica of human beings seems to me to be a goal with some end in mind. What that is is hard to say.

I would as well, but I'm also willing to be forgiving of Bethesda. I feel like they tried really hard to tie all these things together cohesively AND keep each faction a viable option for rational players, so in that regard I think they did well.

It makes complete sense really when you consider that The Institute is out to preserve themselves. They believe the surface world is a lost cause.

Thats the whole point of the Institute main quest. Make The Institute self-sufficient and crush its enemies so that it can last forever or at least that it will continue on "long after the surface dies out."

Remember when you get the chance to ask Father: why me (essentially)? He says that the Institute has plenty of scientists, what it needs is a leader. If you remember sitting in on the directorate meetings, at least from an ideological standpoint, the scientists are all over the place, AND each one obviously places their work/needs above the others. If you want someone to keep an organization working smoothly and functioning into the future, you need someone with the strength of will to hold all these disparate groups together. And that someone needs to have a dedication to the organization that extends beyond some professional courtesy; it needs to be a desire bound by some overriding and powerful will or emotion. Carrying on the righteous work of your son to preserve humanity sounds like the beginning of fanatical devotion to me.

And it isn't the championing of Father's goals and dreams, it is the "Institute" (again assuming some larger entity).

I need to go find that terminal then. I tried to read through everything when I was in the Institute, but I don't remember reading about Walker, especially in the context of him being the previous director. Can anyone corroborate this?

I'm not really sure what to say to that except that's one hell of a risky gamble. Bringing in a complete wild-card that could potentially bring ruination to The Institute. If he's actually your son, it makes sense because he actually wants to trust and involve you in his life's work.

If all he wanted was a random outsider, why pick the player character at all? A guy or gal who, presumably, initially hates The Institute from the get go for killing their wife/husband and kidnapping their son.

Its just...crazy really. The Institute got along fine for 200+ years with scientist leaders. Why change that for something as trivial as just wanting "a leader not a scientist"? And then gambling it all on a random individual with no connection (except negative ones) and hope and pray something works out.

i'm not sure i get the 2nd question right.

"destroyed faction return", do you mean, like, if you destroyed the bos in your main quest, they'd return in a dlc?

or is this more or less another version of some type of "why can't i join the raiders (gunners /etc...)" issue?

But manipulators sound the best at start (to get you on their side) and only over time start saying the truth in order to transfer those beliefs to you. Shaun, on other hand, is the opposite: in his earliest dialogues he sounds like an unemotional ass ("Collateral Damage" anyone?) and only over time starts to sound more humane and likable.

To me, that looks more like a man who wanted to meet you, not feeling that much for you other than interest and over time developing a fondness.

That can be done in a simpler manner: assassinate him during his calibrations. Or teleport him somewhere where he will immediately die. Or just lock him somewhere and send an army of Synths at him. All these methods are simpler and more reliable.

He does end up using you to kill Kellogg, but I doubt it was his original plan. Actually, I think he just wanted you two to meet in order to see what happens, as an experiment. If you end up killing him, than good for both of you!

I think it's exactly because he is old: when you grow old and realize you are dying, you want to have a closure on your life. If you have made enemies with someone you held dear, you want to make peace. If you dreamed of doing something, you want to make that dream come true. Etc. I'd say it's the same for him: he wanted to meet his parent before he died, or at least learn something about them. This was his last chance to do so, so he did it.

He wanted to see what would happen. A scientist would interpret that as an experiment.

Dr. Walker is only mentioned on http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/The_Institute_terminal_entries#Personal_Notes_6.

Dr. Walter is mentioned on a http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Implant_update_session_7 that you can find hidden in the Institute.

Maybe they are the same person, but accidentally misnamed.

Also, he knows that you are a Railroad agent from the get go. Another reason you are untrustable.

Cough....... IF father (whoever he is) wanted to meet you,

Why leave you in a locked Vault. (INDEED there is no way out without that found pipboy and no they did not leave it for you)

In my mind at least they took something from the vault to help with there power supply plain and simple, Sure you get released but thats just secondary and Father all ready has Kellog in place should you survive the trip anywhere.... well Had damn Virgil..

He wanted to meet you but he wanted to see if you would search for him after seeing so many years have passed.

As for the Pipboy my guess is it was left becasue the Institute didn't see a need for it. The crew of the Vault where dead before the Institute took Shaun/Father

Exactly They gave the Pip boy no mind, because it was not what they were there for..... But they also did not open the vault (they did not need to I suspect (Bamf in like nightcrawler), So When Father says what he says.....

It is exactly the same as that institute agent talking to kellog after he killed the synths..

"Wow you actually made it here, how about a job. I had written you off as more collateral damage to be honest! Good show pop or Mom."

Jerk heheh

Vaults generally have several pip-boys. If they took that one, the Sole Survivor would have found another one in a closet somewhere. There might also be another way to do it.

And if worst comes to worst, Shaun would just open the Vault once he saw that it remained closed.

For all intents and purposes, you are a random outsider, even if you do share blood. I mean that point was made pretty emphatically when you were named the successor to Father. As for why, I would again say that choosing someone that could be manipulated to have a fanatical devotion to the Institute, that would not be influenced by one particular division but would be driven to pursue the goals of the Institute as a whole, and who has shown or demonstrated their competency. Your character is basically the catalyst behind the destruction of two major organizations at the end of it all AND you had the intelligence and will to reach the Institute in the first place. In a post-apocalypse, I imagine people who fit those criteria are pretty scarce.

I don't believe he changed much, tonally, throughout the game. In fact, if you think about it, he starts off by saying "hey, I'm your son, give the Institute a chance" (obviously paraphrased but that is the general thrust of it) and then over time, that motivation never really changes. Even if you bring up points to the effect of "hey I don't think I'm right for this" his response is "well I think you are, are you telling me I'm wrong?". Basically, flipping the role between the two of you, with him acting as the parent figure, but the main point is that whenever you respond to him positively, it is to say "I won't let you down son", or that again is the general thrust of it. Your only investment in the Institute is the fact that your son apparently leads it. Ideologically, they are identical to any other group. They all want to "save" the Commonwealth in one fashion or another, but the means are obviously different.

I should have chosen my words differently when I phrased this the first time. I agree they could have killed Kellogg any number of ways, that is true. And as an aside, I wonder why they didn't kill Kellogg when they finally had the Coursers. Why keep the deranged sociopath around? But I digress...

I believe that there was an opportunity to test your physical capabilities against Kellogg, one that just happened to coalesce due to the circumstances surrounding the abduction of Shaun. Having you go head to head against Kellogg would be a definitive way to test your combat prowess. If you die, then it is as you said, no harm to the Institute. If you succeed, then their is empirical data to verify that you are more capable than Kellogg, who has the best the Institute can offer. Knowing you can physically handle adversity would be a major boon for a director that is meant to act in a facilitative capacity.

This is really I think the strongest argument for Father being who he says he is. I fully understand this desire and it is a very beautiful thing. And, no one is saying that human beings are perfect. Even for as intelligent as he must be, I'm sure Shaun (as Father) did some things he probably doesn't understand, driven by the simple desire for closure.

However, this could also be the lynchpin move in cementing your devotion to the Institute. Did you see the movie Inception? When they went to implant the idea to dissolve the company in Cillian Murphy's head, they say they need to make him think it was his idea and they use catharsis between him and his estranged ([censored]) father as a way to cement that desire very powerfully in him. Who is to say that the same isn't happening here?

I think you could more powerfully assert that it IS NOT the case, if we didn't have so much behavior from Father that seemed... well erratic at best. As you have stated in your own comments, his primary motivation for interacting with you at all seemed to be curiosity. I know he backs up on that a bit if you question him, but I think you are right. He let you go because he was curious to see what happened, and when you started to show promise, maybe a plan was formulated to make best use of those talents.

I will wholly cede that a lot of what I'm saying is getting into the woods, and I doubt Bethesda would write this kind of a twist because it would be:

1. Waaaaaaaay to involved for the normal player

and

2. A bit too sophisticated for them. Not that I think they couldn't do it, but it strikes me as being Bioshock level s--- and they kind of keep it basic. Which is good! I think some of the best stories are basic ones, and I really wish this could have been a simple tale of revenge, but it isn't... yet!

(Gimme time to look at the entries on the terminals. Will edit)

The former not the latter. Basically, do you want to see whatever faction you destroyed rise up again in future dlc. So for the Institute, it would be some splinter group or if my theory is correct, the larger portion of their group. For the BOS it would be more of them flying in from somewhere else. For the Railroad, I guess it would just be more people huddled in some basemant or other crap hole lol.

That is addressed by Father. Who ridicules the views of the Railroad, basically probing your feelings about them. In terms of your relationship with them, if you saw them as a means to an end (getting to the Institute) then he probably doesn't consider it to be a problem. I mean why would he?

Possibly, but even if that were the case, they are just two doctors. Half the staff in the Institute takes the prefix of doctor. It is impossible to say that one of them is in fact the director. I also feel as though they would address the director as such, and they only refrain from calling Father that because he has his own special moniker.

Thank you for your intelligent contribution to the discussion!