I would like raids.

I'm not sure how they could make them properly. If you make them improperly you may as well not have them with all the jerks around.

I don't think any MMO will be able to remove hardcoe gaming from it, while am not a hardcoe myself and keeping in mind that hardcoe gaming is a large part of players, and most of us expect to play a game for a lot of hours a day when they pay monthly for it.

Yeah but I mean gear score, super exclusive club, tear you down for a mistake jerks.

Giving the Fact Groups are 4 players only, i think having instances with more than one organized group is a must.

I really only intend to play for the PvE. PvP in a MMORPG has never really appealed to me. Therefore, I'd certainly like TESO to have some kind of PvE end game, and it sounds like it will with those "adventure zones."

Even shorter, private dungeons with 8 players would be nice.

Though I'm not a raider myself I still believe there needs to be that endgame goal to strive for. I think one of the members of Shoddycast said it best in the latest ESO Weekly, "Zenimax, are you confident that you have enough endgame content to keep people subscribed for months on end?" I find a lot of games just don't have enough to offer at endgame, or the ultimate challenge to get involved in. If that goal doesn't exist or just has the illusion of productivity leading up to it many players will realise that and do something different in another game. Because we've seen this time and time again in recent years however, Zenimax have to give the honest answer to the question "What can you offer at endgame that has lasting appeal and replay value?"

Wait until Adventure Zones are released and you've experienced them for a long enough time. Basing your judgements on something that - as far as the final product is concerned - doesn't exist is not the way to go. I don't believe Zenimax are too short-sighted to believe that if people don't enjoy levelling yet find themselves at 50 even more questing will suffice as endgame content.

Yeah this is when it becomes more than a game for some people, I remember having to go stand at the AH in WoW while some kid comes and inspects my stuff before I can join their pick up group etc haha, it borders pathetic sometimes.

Its why you add the sound people you speak to and group with when leveling and make sure you find a guild with real people, raiding when you can laugh at your own wipes is the best way.

They are?

Group based content is more prevalent because it's easier and cheaper to develop due to size (per dungeon, you will generally get a fair few dungeons for the same cost / time investment than you would for raids), scope and balancing considerations. Raids are still as much a focus for end game PvE as they have ever been in the genre. That itself doesn't look set to change any time soon. What we are seeing though is multiple difficulty options being explored for raid content to try and widen it's appeal.

To the OP. Very little is known about the adventure zones (almost next to nothing). If they are being touted as end game PvE I would hazard a guess that there would be some way of limiting player count (segregating content in adventure zones within a separate instance?), otherwise as you said the content would be zerged and lose any challenge or fun.

Just for the sake of argument (I mean, what else are we going to do pre-launch ), I fear that we do not have "a long time". The try-hards will reach level cap quickly and want something to do. If there is not a "world's first Molag Bal" I think they will move elsewhere.

i hate that club myself, still there are different types of guilds and ppl, while some humble and friendly guilds achieved a lot without the need to go full hardcoe

Adventure zones are a different and intelligently designed map full of different pve content, its content varies from solo to 12 man. So far Adventure zones are not public as I know, neither it would make any sense to make them public.

it seems like a nice idea tbh, as long as they are not public am totaly into it....

I agree, but TES have been known for its PVE content right?. I believe that adventure zones will fulfill the role of the endgame pve. It seems that it takes alot more time to develop than just raids tho, but concidering how much content they can potentially have in just one advenure zone, they might be worth the wait.

Stop with the "you" business please. I find that brand of projection particularly offensive.

For me, raids are less "feel the achievement" and more "be a face in the crowd." Similar to what some sPvP fans have said about ow-PvP (where, oddly, I don't tend to have that problem. I suspect it's something to do with the differences between ganging up on a 'boss' versus ganging up on another gang.)

Also, it was less "enjoy the company of friends" and more "come to hate my so-called friends as their behavior pushes me towards the griefer side." I won't say raids bring out the worst in people, as that's a rather absolutist statement. I'll say instead that they bring out a side of people that I personally find intolerable.

I've run into more than a few people who hate WoW but play it anyway. Don't ask me why. (I mean, I could guess but it wouldn't be fair.) Weirdest thing is, they all say it's the best MMORPG on the market, then go rambling off on how every single piece of it is terrible.

Meanwhile, LoL is far more popular than WoW (based on player-counts); and as I understand it, that game is "all PvP all the time." It's also not a true MMORPG, but I think it's at least close enough that an MMO can look to it for inspiration at least as readily as they look to single-player games.

In the same way Warcraft was known for it's RTS content when they were developing WoW.

IMHO the mathematical symbol ≠ is a bit archaic in this day and age. I may be wrong, but != seems like a more logical "is not equal to" shortcut to use now. My perspective may be skewed in this regard though. I know, off-topic..

On-Topic, they are spending plenty of time on PvE if you've kept up with things. This is coming from someone that will be primarily partaking in the PvE side of the game. Not completely, but primarily.

I think they already confirmed 24 man raids like a year ago.

i disagree with you there, i don't think that being part of 8 man group is a face in the crowd compared to public events where you have god knows how many there, what you do in a 8-16 man group actually maters, and regarding your friends i just think that you had the wrong friends there

your reply was based on a bad experience that you had and that's totally understandable, but the discussion here is about a main feature in pve and MMOs in General

that's good news tbh, thanx for sharing one can only hope.

But where do you go after Molag Bal has been beaten so many times he's essentially become just a farm?

Most of the MMOs that fail seem to do so as a result of multiple problems rather than any single one. Not that this stops anyone from using them as an example for why their Pet Issue is either necessary or will never work.

1. Outside

2. Sure, but having PvP as the only endgame is a biggie to be sure.

The discussion started with someone trying to project *their* individual experiences onto the general population. I felt it appropriate to point out that my experience did not match theirs in any way, shape or form. (Also, it wasn't "a" bad experience. It was a number of bad experiences, with the payoff at the end being insufficient to offset them.) You can say that your experience was not the same as mine, but if you try to disagree with what my experience was... then you're just engaging in some of the behavior I found intolerable

Wrong friends? Maybe, but I had no problems with any of them up until that point.

Also, I've been told many times that 8-man groups are not 'raiding.' I'm not quite sure where the general raiding community would actually put the breakoff point at though; seems like it's *somewhere* between 10 and 20.

1) I'll admit, I loled.

2) Works for shooters. Works for LoL. Works for RTS games, and even a fair number of TBS ones. It also works for Eve, though I'll admit that in that particular case it's because Eve's design features let it thrive at lower sub rates than most themeparks could stand. It *might* have worked for Darkfall, if it hadn't had systemic issues that made it incredibly unfriendly for late-adopters (at least, that's why I couldn't get into Darkfall) but that one's more speculative.

This is assuming you mean "lost money and had to abort" rather than "failed to achieve arbitrarily-high number of players" when you say 'fail.' If not, I reject your definition of fail (and refuse to finish the butchering of Adam Savage's catch-phrase.)

Fair enough, and I'll concede that I meant failed for "me and my friends". There was not enough to keep us, and many others, playing after we reached level cap.