I'm not intending to be rude, so please don't take it that way but I think you're misunderstanding what's being implied then. Repeating skills over and over will still raise them whether your engaged in an activity or not.

I agree I only use Restoration for restoring my health and getting rid of diseases and that probably won't change in Skyrim.

There is a way, I believe: gain skills by completing quests. But that's not a very efficient way of leveling skills.

no offense taken, as I would be the first to admit I could be completely misunderstanding this doubly translated interview.

However, the interviewer asked Todd specifically, "In Oblivion you can increase skills by casting unlock on a door 50 times, etc. Is this still possible?"

And Todd's answer was "No"

That would be almost similar to an experience point based system. Which is probably why almost all RPGs except for Elder Scrolls use an experience based system. Because it works. I can accept that some players just want their role-playing experience and don't care for stats or becoming stronger. But I play games for a challenge. I want to play a role in a role-playing game, sure. But I also want to become a strong hero. Which makes sense. In real life I want to become 'stronger' as well. I want to learn new things. Unfortunately I can't become a math genius by simply counting 1+1 repeatedly. I'd have to invest some serious effort for that. But in ES games I can simply count 1+1 and - whoops - I'm a super hero. There is no way in a computer game to make sure that I can't do that. Because the computer simply can't know what I'm currently doing, why I'm doing it and how much effort it takes to do it.

I think in a perfect (computer game) world the ES system would be best system that can possibly exist. But computers are limited and so it the ES leveling system. Even if Todd says it will all be great.

Agreed. God forbid that they would. It would put a real cramp in the style of anyone who opted to be a mage. Can you imagine only being able to charm one person per day, or to use one unlock spell in an evening. Your ease burden spell wears off. . . and you stand in place until this time tommorrow? Pass, thanks.

In addition to a small amount of health gained naturally every level.

Actually, it makes perfect sense that your skills would increase by "spamming", i.e. repeatedly casting certain spells. It doesn't matter whether your Dremora gets into a fight or just quietly helps you comb your hair. . . . it doesn't matter if your light spell helps you see your way out of a pitch dark dungeon, or if it just lights your room while you read a betime story. . . effectively and triumphantly casting it, increases your affintity with and understanding of that school of magic. If ES starts forcing you to have completed a certain quest or to wait a set amount of time, aside from the time it takes to cast, in order to increase certain autonomous skills, it will be a step in the wrong direction, I think .

I would certainly love to see some sort of fun in-game implementation of magical research involving reading old books and scrolls, studying the theories of magic, or something even more interesting.

When I finally get to play this game that we have been waiting on for 5 years, I absolutely do not want to spend hours of precious game time casting detect life on myself over and over in order to unlock a perk.

Sooo..... you'll have to increase skills in order to gain access to new abilities, as opposed to Oblivion's system in which you........ had to increase skills in order to gain access to new abilities. And somehow that means that in Skyrim people won't "have to" spam skills in order to get access to those new abilities like they "had to" in Oblivion.

:goodjob:

I was never one for simply spamming spells or any other skill for a level up, I just used them as necessary so it was never really an issue for me. It depends on your play style I suppose, there's nothing inherently wrong about it; you could justify it as simply practicing your skills to better use them, but I find it makes the game unnecessarily boring when you become a super hero without using your skills in combat and it takes away all sense of natural progression.

edit:gpstr got it right you never had to do it, it was purely player choice. Should probably stay that way too.

If you count 1+1, can you solve fractions after you've counted 1+1 long enough? No. You can't. It takes effort to learn how to solve fractions and you can count 1+1 for your whole life without ever knowing how to solve fractions. In a computer game it wouldn't be fun to research things so you need to learn by doing. If you fight mud crabs you don't learn how to properly use a sword. But if you fight someone/something more challenging you may find out how to react properly to a stronger enemy. That is why most RPGs use an experience point based system. It's far from perfect, but it rewards you for overcoming challenges. The tougher the challenge, the more experience you gain. In ES games there is no such difference. It's all about repetition. The quality doesn't matter, only the quantity.

It seems pretty clear that Todd confirmed you cannot spam unlock spells to raise alteration.

From the rest of his comment, it seems like they made an effort to remove those kinds of repetitive activities, not only running and jumping but (hopefully) all the repetitive spell casting as well.

Whether they did this by implementing time limits, restricting skill gains to activities during combat, or some other ingenious method, I have no idea.

But they certainly didn't replace this with XP from quests, as it has already been confirmed that you only get XP from using your skills.

It's a mystery to me how they implemented these changes, but hopefully we will see more details revealed in the Skyrim Fan Interview and E3.

I know you can't now if that's true, but that doesn't change the fact it was up to the player to do so, I don't see anything wrong with doing it if that's what you want to do. You were never forced to :shrug:

However if you excercise regularly, you become stronger. If you read often, engage in riddles and puzzle solving etc., you become more proficient at those things. If you sing regularly, you tend to have greater vocal range. If you practice playing guitar alone in your bedroom, your skills will increase. You don't have to play to a sold out concert hall just to improve your profinciency with the instrument.

I am all for gaining some lore from books, and from training. . . which, actually, were both present in Oblivion. I am also for learning through experimentation. . . though, now that I think on it. . . Spellmaking and enchanting pretty much fall into that category. I would have loved it if you could discuss some of these things with other mages, the way mages in Oblivion discussed them with one another. But that is an AI and interaction issue, not a skill development one.


Some spells, like destruction, actually did require you to use them on something to advance them, even if it was something you conjured yourself. But to suggest that you should't be able to increase your skill in casting light spells or alteration spells unless you are using them in a quest. . .that just doesn't make any sense. It is making something simple difficult just for the sake of making it hard, and it is forcing your preffered playstyle onto others who may not share your sentiment.

Want your spellcraft to only be increased "in the field"? Don't cast any spells unless you are on a quest or on an adventure. Problem solved.

I suppose it's a matter of willpower. I absolutely hated doing it, but I was always a bit behind in getting to journeyman and inevitably I would end up having to spend a few hours to get some magic skills up to journeyman.

I have played a few playthroughs of Oblivion without ever using fast travel, simply because I enjoy the experience of walking around and exploring each time I'm traveling somewhere.

However, after reaching a certain point in the game, I could no longer resist the temptation to take some time to sit around and bore myself to tears casting unlock or detect life or whatever over and over in order to unlock the journeyman spells. It felt like it had nothing to do with the RP experience and it was certainly not fun.

Not trying to be an ass or anything but a matter of some peoples lack of self control should not be a reason to change the game to force a certain playstyle on those who don't want it. I have no issue with the change myself because that's how I play anyway but I realize there are those that will want to do that and in a game that promotes player choice they should have that ability if they so choose. You were never forced to spam spells and I never found I had to. If you did spam spells that was your choice and you must have wanted to do it or you wouldn't, the game doesn't take over your mind and force you to play a certain way, it's entirely player choice.

I don't really like the news from the first thing, perks are just starting to sound like they will be more and more cookie-cutter. The only thing making this bearable is it won't be a bland "LOL U leveled up! here's a perk point to invest in a bland talent tree! Go nuts"

Okay - let's anolyze this:

In the first place, the question is mind-numbingly stupid, since, in fact, you couldn't cast "unlock door" fifty times on a door without locking it in between casts, and there's no way in game to lock a door. So obviously whoever asked the question hasn't even played the game.

Second, what Todd really said was "We have resolved most of these issues." That's it. No more detail than that. That's not an explanation - it's barely even a statement, since it's so broad and vague as to be essentially meaningless. It's the sort of thing that one hears from a politician's spokesperson.

And it's certainly of note that in response to the first question, he says, "It's (getting perks) by increasing skills. You invest points in them, and given the opportunity to select various special attacks and such things. It is basically like a regular perk tree, just that there are certain requirements before you can unlock various perks." That means that, in the end, the system is going to be just about exactly the same as Oblivion's - before you can get whatever you want, you're going to have to increase your skills - meet "certain requirements." Which flies directly in the face of the notion that the skill-spamming that people "had to" do in Oblivion has suddenly vanished in Skyrim.

I'll predict right now that all the people who thought they "had to" spam skills in Oblivion in order to get attribute increases are going to think that they "have to" spam skills in Skyrim in order to get perks.

I only hope that it ends up as optional as it really was in Oblivion, rather than as necessary as so many seem to think it was.....

I guess it depends on how you play it. When I wanted to increase my conjuration skill, I was fine with repeat casting. I MADE it interesting and specific to my character. I went far up into the mountains beyond Bruma, isolated with none but my apprentice, and summoned Dremora after Dremora, learning their ways, attuning a connection to their minds, better learning the intricate workings of The Summons. . . until I had learned more of the art than virtually any other in Cyrodiil, and was able to call upon Xivalai on a whim. It is all in how you approach it, but I would preffer having the freedom to approach it in different ways, than have the play style dictated to all in order to accomodat the wishes of some.

actually, the door doesn't need to be locked in order to do this.

trust me I had to level up my alteration skill this way.

Yeah, we are no longer plagued by our own inability to stop sitting in a room by ourselves casting the same spell over and over for a single skill increase instead of having some self control and just going adventuring! Todd is such a miracle worker!

No, the people with that kind of lack of self control will still find some way to complain about some totally optional feature that they just can't wait to abuse. Turns out that hitting a tree raises your weapon skill? Prepare for "I shouldn't HAVE to sit in the forest smashing this tree to level up!"


Thank you.

The alternative is a game where everyone spends a lot of time looking ridiculous, hopping around like a rabbit everywhere while simultaneously spamming restoration spells.

In my view that is a broken system.

That is entirely the players choice you were never forced to do that. If you did you obviously wanted to because using skills in a situation that required it was quite enough, the only reason you have put forth is lack of self control and impatience to wait until you character naturally progresses to the point where they can unlock more powerful spells. I never had to spam spells or any other skills for that matter.

Why not just use it on locked things? There was plenty of locked chests and doors in the game and doors relock every night...not to mention the other spells in the school of alteration that you can use.

If you play the same chord on your guitar in your bedroom repeatedly you won't become better. Only if you play something new, more challenging. It has nothing to do with the audience. Apart from that the experience based system isn't perfect, but it is as perfect as it can get in a computer game with limited possibilities. The ES system will never reward you for doing special things, it's always about quantity only and always will be unless computer games are so advanced that they can take into account the challenge of every possible action of the player.



I think I already said that I play games for a challenge. Sorry, but the 'don't like it, don't use it' argument really gets on my nerves. It's like your boss says 'Hey, I could give you 10000$ more each month' and you say 'No, thanks, the 2000$ I currently earn are enough for me'. If there is an easy and fast way to improve my skills then I will do it. Simple as that. It's also a part of role-playing for me by the way - I don't want to play an idiot after all.

In the end it's a matter of taste. But since this thread was about the problem of repetitive button mashing (something only people would do who want to become stronger) I figured I could say a word or two about the problem the ES system in my opinion really has.

I just hope there will be a mod like Oblivion XP asap for people like me.