This thread is basically my theory on the new perk chart and how it affects combat, put briefly it doesn't, at least not the core aspects.

Judging from what we now know its become apparent to me that weapon skills/perks no longer exist, multiple forums have gone around saying guns is now known as gun nut, but lets look at what gun nut did in fallout 3 +5 guns +5 repair, now lets look at where it was shown at e3, the crafting system right? Yes, so putting these two together leads me to the conclusion that gun nut is a crafting perk as is science since neither (realistically) would affect a weapons damage, lets be realistic here being good at science isn't going to make a raider's laser rifle hit harder, just like knowing the difference between a clip and a mag on a gun isn't gonna make it pop a muties head any better, it will however give you a better understanding of their inner workings allowing you to make modifications.

Need more proof? Well since its almost confirmed that weapons and armor no longer degrade that means that there is no use for a repair skill/perk, but Bethesda seemed to be focusing on crafting in their demos, so they must of split repair into science and gun nut and possibly a melee version (more on that later), made hacking its own thing and with combat being focused on player skill rather than "number crunching" its only logical to scrap weapons skills/perks all together.

So next melee and unarmed or should I say just melee since it seems they've combined the two, so
Lets look at the special stat descriptions shall we strength clearly says it affects melee damage whereas endurance doesn't mention unarmed, (since when does your endurance affect how hard your punches are?)it says nothing about energy weapons/science and agility makes no mention of guns/gun nut either, so we now know that combat is focusing on player skill + weapon stats, it seems strength will directly affect your damage output with both these weapon types.

Now lets look at perception, it mentions accuracy in vats directly, not accuracy with weapons nope accuracy in vats, so this strengthens my relying on player skill point even more, it also means that combat inside and out of vats will work differently, now before you go red in the face and grind your teeth to dust and scream "CALL OF DUTY WASTELAND WARFARE" let me give you a little good news regarding combat and "tactics".

Armor yes armor its layered now, that means that a raider's right arm could be more exposed than its head making it a weakness, meaning that you would aim for the arm to do the most damage and use the least amount of bullets, think of it like an old school boss battle in most rpgs you can just wail on the enemy till it drops dead or you can exploit its weakness, lets look at what Todd Howard said "vats now offers you more control" control to do what exactly? More damage as we can directly attack specific parts of our enemy exploiting their weakness, it may seem a little OP which is probably why it only slows down time instead of freezing it adding a bit of difficulty, so if you want fallout to be more of a tactical rpg than an fps simple just use vats an deal more damage while using less ammo by targeting your enemies weakness.

Although I have more bits and pieces iv already said alot so ill just check list these other points with quick descriptions, apologies for any misspellings or grammar errors in my writing im writing this out on my phone at work in short bursts so my boss doesn't see me.

-Power armor can be blown off to open weak points.
-ghouls arms can be blown off so that weakness is gone after a certain amount of damage.
-can command companions to take positions and attack specific enemies on the go.
-attack dog perk lets you command your dog to pin an enemy to the ground and rip its throat out as shown in the e3 demo.
-weapons show you all of their stats not just damage.
-heavy focus on special stats.

I'll try an add more info if I think of any and if anyone has any more information supporting or disproving any points I have made I would like to hear them and your opinions.

Since I explained this terribly I guess I should clarify, I'm not saying player stats are gone just that there will be no direct weapon skill like guns, but there will probably still be some like cowboy and grunt in the game.

...except Todd confirmed in a post E3 interview talking about the live action combat that there is still number crunching under the hood, there is still a character based number under there.

So yes gun "skills" are still in, my bet its gunslinger and commando, or at least the perks on the chart that shares the same icon.

Weapon skill still appear to exist but they are just not something the player is going to be able to directly put points into at each level up (like previous FO games).

Now their effect on RT combat is still a question but, as stated above, it has been confirmed that some sort of "number crunching" in the combat system takes those into account.

The old "put 15 points into whatever skill" system was flawed as it was anyway. It only really had 4 points to where it meant anything (25, 50, 75, 100) so now if small guns is rank 1, 2, 3, 4 it's the same damn thing just a different way of saying it.

I'm not saying stats are completely out just that there isn't going to be a guns, energy weapon or melee skill, all weapons have stats that change depending on what modifications we make, as for character numbers there will probably be something like the cowboy perk that effects specific weapons it wont be split into those three categories.

I think a lot of the real-time number crunching will be in the stats of the guns themselves more than the stats of our characters, although I do think we'll get perks that have a more tangible effect on certain aspects of combat.

Ah a bit misunderstanding, apologies, anyway in the case of ranged weapons I still think gunslinger and commando will have live action effects on accuracy, basicly Beth having pulled a Skyrim, gunslinger now affect accuracy of anything fired one handed and commando now affecting anything two handed, whether rifle or bigger gun.

Not really, there were multiple thresholds besides the 25, 50, 75, 100 so having skills at 15, 40 or 80 were still useful and for skills like guns every point counts, sure it might have had a small difference on the gun sway among other things with 1 point but it still made a difference.

A neglecting diffrence ya mean, frankly the 100 point scale is to bloated with lots of empty skill points, a archaic system that's luckily getting refreshed into something more commonly seen even in tabletop RPG made today (as well as seen in some beloved classics, like Shadowrun)

Not going to believe this until I see it. The Bobble head stand we've seen certainly has 7 SPECIAL and 13 slots for SOMETHING showing. I don't doubt that there could be some tweaks to how weapon skill is applied via the perks, but emphatically saying they are gone is premature. Also, you forgot unarmed (technically it is a "weapon" skill).

Its possible but I personally doubt it just due to the accuracy complaints people made about 3 an new Vegas where I think Beth would actively avoid accuracy modifiers in RT combat but you never know.

Well thats the thing Todd basically confirmed, that despite smoothing up the RT combat there still is a element of number crunching to things, including accuracy.

Again not saying they are gone just that there wont be a direct "guns" skill, also I didn't forget unarmed I just have a theory that its been combined into melee due to melee being mentioned in the strength description but unarmed isn't.

Yeah sorry I guess I should have been more literal for people lol it is the internet. Still for the most part it can be broken up into a much smaller grouping of "ranks" that would have the exact same effect without feeling kind of helpless. I like seeing I'm rank 1/5 over 20/100, even though it's the same thing

Hmm fair enough do you have a link to this video? Its not that I don't believe you i would just like to see it since I haven't.

I think he meant they're useless as perks. They don't really change anything as far as gameplay. Just basically adding this amount of damage/accuracy when you could just invest the points yourself.

My guess is anyone can still craft and gun nut increases damage output. Are you sure about weapons no longer degrading? In that case they might have gone for the weapon/part quality thing: rusty x3 scope, new x10 scope, rusty barrel, long barrel... Heck they might have made it Wasteland 2 style where the higher quality parts require higher level of some perk, possibly Jury Rigging..

Todd said theres still number crunching going on. Thats a totally vague thing to say. He could have easily meant that the game is taking any relevant perks that modify a base ATTACK stat, and as the topic says then calculating damage done to the enemy on his left arm that has no armor on it as compared to if you had shot the right that has leather on it.

I think your right TC. I think any character fresh out the vaultr who is level 5 picks up a gun will do the same X amount of damage if they all shot the same guy in the same leg.

Now what starts to up the damage I think is if you add a gun related perk that raises the base Attack statof the player or adds a multiplier or flat increase. Another way is to modify the gun directly through crafting related perks in which case the base Attack stat of the player has not changed but now the guns damage is raised. Obviously if you pick both types of perks youd get both effects added to Base Attack and weapons attack. Or one perk itself could modify both weapon and player stats instead. Who knows.

So thats when all characters attack damage starts to vary. Im sure this base attack stat is also directly tied to our level. So even if I did not choose any gun related perks my damge will still increase every level a set amount. And if you compared it to another character of the same level who did not choose any perks gun related his would be the same number. Now if that second player changes his gun around and I dont then obviously he does more damage. But his Base attack is still the same as mine.

The armor aspect is cool too. I hope out of Vats it calculates more damage if I shoot an unarmored body part or lightly armored compared to the rest. Imagine your lining up a shot to kill Joe ranger. Obviously head shot right? But wait!!! He is wearing some beefy ass helmet. Had you taken the shot youd knock him on his ass, but now hes aware of you and still breathing. Instead you look him over and place your shot in his lightly armored leg. Boom!!! Blew that svck clean off. On to the next one!

SOME number crunching. As in your weapon will have stats, your armor will have stats, you'll have your SPECIAL that factors in etc. etc.. Gunslinger and commando will likely have some sort of impact on accuracy and weapon handling (recoil, straffing etc. etc.). It probably won't impact your base weapon damage all that much. Maybe you get a 10% boost at each level. Otherwise a lot of noobs could look over it and then wonder why it's impossible for them to progress in the game.

I can't see them giving you a hidden weapon skill stat that most noobs will likely overlook. If skills are actually in the game then it's best to just be as straight forward as possible instead of having it just be one of many perks.

Considering that skills indicated how well the character can handle the weapon, I think a good medium was the way scoped weapons were handled. 100 guns gave no jiggle when looking through the scope. Maybe perks that modify the on-screen reticule could make it a little more RPGish. Player skill plays a role, but gameplay with that weapon becomes easier with character expertise.

That's essentially what Todd Howard said. It's not as bad as it was in Fallout 3 where you couldn't play the game without leveling up the weapon skill, but it is going to impact gameplay.

That's a shame, for an RPG.

(Doubly so for a Fallout RPG.)

Lol, you will still put like 5,000 hours into it.

Only if paid. I don't have 50 hours in New Vegas, and it's a far better game; the general gameplay [in between conversations] doesn't interest. The best of the best times in FO3 were solitary walks in the wasteland ~that did not get interrupted.

I'm not hugely critical of the new system (I used to be), but I don't like how they seem to be focusing on the ability for players to be awesome with all weaponry. They're not making an RPG where you have to decide whether you are initially skilled with energy weapons, or guns, or explosives, or heavy weapons, etc. They're making a game where every man and his dog can pick up a weapon and be badass with it, for the sake of making the game fun and accessible to everyone.

But who knows, maybe Bethesda will do a good job with the perks and make it difficult to specialise in all types of combat.

Wow, I guess on the bright side you still have the Wasteland series.

The character build choices, as a whole, are much much tougher than in previous Fallout games. If you really want to be a sniper you have to invest 8 points in perception. Perception also affects your chance to hit in VATS. Same with agility and action points. They also give you much better reasons to invest in charisma and intelligence now than they did in previous games. On top of all that there are way less SPECIAL points this time around.