This is why Oblivion is less of an RPG
I don't agree with that

there is much less consequence in the game.
But I agree with that

And I can't believe you posted that statement as a reply to a quote that makes no such claim. I (humorously, I thought) reported on my in-game experience using siltstrider transport. I didn't say anything about their being invincible. But good job hitting that straw man. Carry on!

Lol, I hate opinions

I gotta agree that Oblivion isn't really too "RPG"

Opinions...double-edged sword I gotta say :hehe:

Dear developers of TES, please regard this post...

Morrowind
Strengths:
-Lot's of tasty lore
-Lot's of Unique landscapes and cultures
-Crazy looking creatures
-Some terrain was actualy difficult to pass, making the world seem larger
-Fast travel was in the form of silt striders and boats, making it easier to RP and challenging the player
-Mark/Recall
Weaknesses:
-Combat system was terrible
-NPCs did crap all throughout the day

Oblivion
Strengths:
-Good combat (at first)
-Improved magic system
-NPCs actualy appeared to have a life
Weaknesses:
-Combat became repetitive
-The environment was the same every where you went (no unique flora or fauna)
-No unique cultures
-Creatures were very generic
-The terrain was just... flat
-Towns seemed like they were abandoned
-Two houses and a cabbage patch count as a town? Really?
-Lore was almost non-existant
-Fast travel to any major city right out from the beginning
-Skills appeared to be dumb-down for simplicity's sake. Many weapons were removed
-Crappy leveling system
-No randome unique loot
-On top of that, all loot was scaled, making the entire point of exploring moot ("Oh yay, another spool of yarn and three gold")
-Way too much freakin hand-holding. The compass is nice, but the journal entries are just rediculous
-Was rather plane over all; the Devs appeared to use "Generic Fantasy Land #239" for the setting


I'd like the next game to have Morrowind's in-depth lore, cool environments, unique cultures, some crazy animals, and drive for exploration... but improved Oblivion graphics, NPCs, AI, combat system, and quality over quantity quests. Basically, I want an upgraded Morrowind with all of the latest tech. Have the best of both worlds.

journal was far worse in OB.

I really love both games. While I mostly play Morrowind, I still whip out Oblivion quite often. (As I'm doing now.) There's both good and bad about each game, of course. But the most jarring difference, to me, is the huge gap in the amount of atmosphere between the two games.

Oblivion is loads of fun to play. The few new books were interesting, as were some of the various ruins. But it never felt unlike a game to me. I can't back my impression up with a well-expressed list of things Oblivion didn't have, but I can say Morrowind felt like it's own world, rather than a game trying to portray a world.

It may have something to do with the care that seemed to go into Morrowind. All NPCs had their own (Sometimes unique, sometimes factional) opinions, drives and desires. When you met a Nord living in Dagon Fel, you knew why they were there, and what they did there. Each animal had it's place in the daily life of the people living on Vvardenfell. Each plant had it's uses and specific region(s) of growth. And that's not even going into the layers of political and social tensions.

It's not about gameplay for me. Yes, it was awfully pretty and exciting to shock a minotaur. But when Morrowind was so believable within itself (At least to me.) why can't we have both?

I have felt that this idea of Morrowind being static, and Oblivion's NPs having lives, doesn't stand up to scrutiny. In Morrowind, people wandered or stood about, but they all had jobs, duties, homes, a place in the world, even if it was only implied. In Oblivion, this illusion of function is shattered, because they now have schedules, there is no roon for implication. Every aspect of their irrelevant and aimless lives is evident. In Morrowind they would tell you what their job was: In oblivion, the only people who work are the farmers. Everyone else gravitates between the inn and home, with no semblance of a working economy like in Morrowind. The mines are empty, the docks have nobody working them.

Morrowind is actually static but feels functional, whereas Oblivion is simply aimless, in their NPC AI.

So, you want less detail and less realism? Or just better AI?



It was there, it just wasn't written in a book. There's plenty of room for speculation, and it isn't just making stuff up, either, it's the use of in-game evidence to work out what's going on with things such as the Renrijra Krin and Mythic Dawn.

Where do people come up with this stuff. It's so wrong.

Please are even still saying no unique dungeons or landscapes even though there are specific examples in the thread that prove that wrong. I'd say there are more unique landscapes in TES: IV than III.

Same thing with unique items.

As far as lore, its not "almost non-existant". Theres the story of the brush of true paint, stories of Noturnal having things stolen, the story of the akaviri invasion and Pale Pass, the story of Garridan's Tears, bunch of lore in the main quest, Shivering Isles lore, Mehrunes Razor lore, etc.

It seems to me that some people that love Morrowind (a great game), just want to hate Oblivion and so make up reasons that dont' really hold up to scrutiny. Maybe because they want to hate Oblivion so much they miss alot of things in it. At least that's the way it seems to me.

How can you say that there are more unique landscape on oblivion? Just tell me 1 place in the wilderness/cities of cyrodill that looks like nothing we have seen before. Even the daedric realms were uninteresting. Only shivering isles had it more interesting.

If they're going to keep schedules in, I want them to at least do something with a purpose. detail, realism and AI can go hand in hand, if they can be bothered.


I would hazard that the lore in Cyrodiil was confined to the books, and the world itself built by questwriters, but not the lore writers. In Morrowind, the lore written in the books corresponded with that in the world. In Oblivion, we have pages and pages of the Adabala and song of pelinel, but not a whisper of allessian culture remains in the world. The Akaviri influence is well documnted, but how many pagodas and daikatanas did the nobles of the Imp really have?


And as for the Renrijra Krin, we get the Adhijer Tra-not-even-going-to-try-to-spell-it, and a rumor that "the renrijra krin are just a bunch of thugs". We don't actually see anything in the game of them, despite the fact that their attacks are supposed to be frequent.


On that, I agree. It just melds more gradually, making it look like you're in one big region.


Things like Garridan's Tears are meaningless padding if they don't tell us anything about the world, or have any effect on it.

tottaly true...


The viewfrom the whole of cyrodiil at the White Gold Tower.... it's the most unique site in the whole Elder Scrolls history.... nothing is more beautifull then that....

Hah, touche.

It wasn't an incredibly popular thing, even if its founder was.



Considering that many nobles in the east of Cyrodiil were not actually Imperials, we can only consider three of them. And one of those does actually have quite a collection of Akaviri artifacts, so if we assume that a third of the region's nobility have connections to the Ayleids, it seems like quite a good representation.

I think that there's a reason that the quest was given to the countess, rather than another Imperial noble in Bruma, and there aren't many reasons other than the lore.



From that bit of dialogue, and others, I've actually worked out the economy and actions of the Renrijra Krin. It's just a theory, obviously, but is based entirely on what is said by NPCs and the evidence in the game. I also looked at things such as NPC schedules, things that are said in other quests, and a few locations in the game.

This is what we can get from what is said in the game:

'We need some law-and-order... bring in the Legions. 'Leyawiin for the Imperials,' I say. No sense coddling those Renrijra Krin bandits' - an Imperial in Leyawiin
'The Renrijra Krin are Khajiit bandits and smugglers posing as guerillas and freedom fighters' - the Count of Bravil's military advisor
'The skooma trade is making a lot of money for the tribes in Elsweyr, and a lot of that is going to the Renrijra Krin' - any person in the game
'Well, I don't know much about politics, but I think Lady Alessia's right. We've got to put a stop to all these bandits and rabble in the Trans-Niben. I know the Khajiit are all upset that the Council took away their land and gave it to us, but they just have to get over it! It's our land now' - an Imperial in Leyawiin
'Sounds like the Empire has given up on stopping the skooma trade in Elsweyr, and I hear tribal chiefs are supporting the Renrijra Krin' - any person in the game
'That skooma trade is bad business, and the Renrijra Krin are just a bunch of thugs' - any person in the game
'Leyawiin stands alone' - any person in Leyawiin, talking about what the count says, when you close the Oblivion Gate near the city

There's also the comments made by Alessia, about how Leyawiin needs people to take action against the Renrijra Krin themselves, the presence of skooma in the region, and the fact that the houses in Border Watch seem to have been occupied by raiders (the weapons and tribal system of the inhabitants are further proof of this).



The Akaviri invasion, Knights of the Nine, and Shivering Isles should have been of massive interest to the lore forum. But, because they were Oblivion, they were almost completely ignored.



Morrowind's regions were different paint textures. It was Oblivion that actually had more unique landscapes, because they were not just copied from another area. And, actually, most of Oblivion's landscapes we hadn't seen before, unless you think that they should take out the grass and trees.

I agree that cyrodills landscape/cities are more beautiful, but that doesent mean that it is unique. What i mean with unique is that if you play any other game, you will see that cyrodills ciry/nature is nothing different than any other rpg game. But if you look at morrowind, you will find landscape and cities that has its own looks, wich you will never find in other games. (Ashlands, Sadrith Mora and more). Cydills landscape is beautifull indeed, but it doesent have that mystical feeling that an explorer should feel when discovering a new place

How come these threads always turn into the same argument? And stupid cockfights?

Yes, morrowind have sharp and distinct environments, and yes, they are different from each other. And it is based on the same basic textures... So? It is still different environments. The game was released in 2002 guys and gals?

Oblivion has diverse environments to. They are not as distinctly different as in Morrowind, were swamp turn into grassland, divided by a one meter (3 feet?) of hilltop... On the other hand, Oblivions environments are generic. The game could have taken place in any fantasy game. And apparently it is not lore friendly...

Oblivion has a more user friendly combat system. They went a little to far with some things in it, like always hitting and skill based damage, and removal of weapons. Morrowind on the other hand have a complicated dice system. The animations in combat are [censored]. And it is boring, IF you utilize the fighting style of "charging in and hack away as fast as you can". Using some strategy and creative thinking (jumping, retreating, sidestepping etc) it will become very interesting. The same is true in Oblivion but in different ways.

Level scaling like Oblivion broke the game, and forces you to powerleveling and stat-watching. Same with morrowind, but only to a decree.

Magic is mostly the same. Oblivions system is more user-friendly. Mana regeneration is good, but way to fast. In Morrowind you can abuse the system if you know how. Oblivions take away many of the best effects from lower levels and more or less nerf some of the spells. The option of a fast getaway (vital to Nightblades and pure mages) disappeared with the removal of the teleportation spells.

And the list goes on. This is two different games, from two different eras. Both are good. Very good. There is no reason to go out to defend either game. What parameters that are better in which game is mainly subjective, i.e. a matter of preference. No side is going to be able to win these arguments...

The Akaviri invasion has little left to discuss, seeing as how vague it was, and Shivering Isles is interesting in its own right, but when you've finished on th Sheorgorath-Jygalagg duality, there's little left that affects Tamriel.

And it generally appears to me, that when the Lore Forum is not discussing some aspect of the Tribunal or the Dwemer, they are discussing the Allessian Revolt, the Remanada, the shezzarine and aspects of them. They have a great interest in Cyrodiil, just not necessarily the Cyrodiil of Oblivion, even if they do accept KOTN as valid. I imagine sometimes they see the games as being a hindrance to The Elder Scrolls!

The problem with Oblivion, simply put is that it's boring. Sure, it plays and looks better. Sure the dialogue is good. The main quest is good if you don't think too much about it. However, when you do stop to think about it, you can only realize that there is nothing more to it. When you try to immerse yourself in the world, the cardboard shows up.
Take for example the big quests. Pale Pass, Guilds of Mages, Fighters and Thieves. They all involve something big from lore. It however doesn't relate to Cyrodiil and are of little consequence. As such they all become irrelevant, interchangeable and replaceable. The biggest things in lore made almost irrelevant!

The reason Morrowind, Knights of the Nine and the First PGE get discussed allot is because they all create a vision of a place that is complicated and strange and therefore interesting. So it would have been better had Oblivion like Knights of the Nine focused on canvassing out who the Imperials are, what they do and what they believe in, made them as a people interesting.
I think part of it can be explained by the large number of new developers unfamiliar with the lore and process of creating it, part by the voice dialogue that takes away large amounts of information that can't be replaced in any other way, part by the way large productions are managed by dividing the work into completely isolated components.

Now if your first thought is to point a lore justification for being boring, or something in Morrowind that was boring, inconsequential, or something in Oblivion that was interesting and revolutionary you don't get it. It's not a problem with each individual element of the game, but how it all holds together.
As Mercareth already mentioned, this is to some degree variable and differs for each person, but when the people that like to pick the Septim lineage apart, people capable of understanding Mankar Camoran are disappointed with Oblivions representation of current day Cyrodiil, something is very wrong with the lore.

---

Some notes:

* I think it's funny how regulars on the lore forum talk about "they".

* I'd also like to encourage everybody who's been talking about mechanics to take up medieval fencing. It's much more complicated, much more technical, much more interesting and requires a great deal more skill then Oblivion or Morrowind. It's also a heck of allot more fun.

* Just to stress the point some more. The games are simulation, they're the medium though which an experience can be delivered. As such the discussion shouldn't involve how good travelling was, or how many choices you got to make. Rather discuss what experience should be. In Morrowind you were the Outlander scum, a bystander that would end up saving the world. In Oblivion you saved the world, but beyond the Hero, what were you? Nothing.

I'm confused, then. On the first page of this thread you said,



So which is it? If you are not justifying fast travel in Oblivion as walking, then how exactly do you justify it?




Don't forget that the 'clutter' in Morrowind's dungeons often included things like hammocks or bedrolls, tables and chairs, bottles, plates of food with silverware, candles, books. chests of drawers with clothing, etc. I don't recall many of these things being in the dungeons in Oblivion.



Theories and opinions are not the same as evidence. Thus, it is difficult to draw any concrete facts or conclusions about lore in Oblivion because in many/most circumstances, it lacks any hard evidence.





Okay, then it would only take a few days or a week to travel such a distance. Still doesn't adequately explain how you travel from one end of the map to the other within the course of a single day.





Assuming that silt strider is even on an Ashlander tribe's menu, then there is still the problem of hunting it, field dressing it, cutting the meat into smaller pieces for transport, preserving it, and actually transporting all of the meat back to camp. Such a task would require an entire tribe, and if that were the case, then they would just relocate wherever they happened to kill the silt strider. That is also assuming that they could even catch a silt strider to begin with. Seems easier for them to hunt a few nix-hounds and alit, then get whatever materials are needed to make armor out of already-dead silt striders. Anyway, that is getting a bit beside the point.




Using my own anology as a reference, you must be the type of person who prefers to walk from Los Angeles to Las Vegas, even though there is the option of flying there for free.





Again, you are ignoring the sheer size of such a creature and how hard it would be to single-handedly kill it. Plus, you are making assumptions. Where is the evidence that they can't move from side to side? Even if it didn't skewer you with just one of its legs, who's to say it wouldn't run the moment you attacked?

I second the recomendation to try or at least watch medeival fencing. It is fun, complicated and very intence. A fight between two good fencers will be fast and agile, and there are lots of grappling, throws, and complicated strikes that come out of nowere... Give it a youtube serch, there are lots of vids out there.

As for some of the discussion of the games, as long as it is constructive a discussion of the travelling system, or magic system, or combat system can be very good. The problem is that people don't seem to look at the games objectivly. Morrowind don't need defending, and the same is true for Oblivion. But without a discussion about what is good and bad in each system there will be no devellopment. In the worst case the next game will be taken in the wrong direction based on conflicting fan discussions.

As for combat and magic, all morrowind fans should, imho, agree with everyone else that the system is cluncky. I would love to have an expanded system based on Obs system, but with oponents that dodge, retreat, block etc, and with weaponspecific damage as in morrowind (an axe cant thrust, but chops well etc). Also, spears and crossbows ffs. This is the best of two worlds, imo. Don't take away OBs/fallout 3 fast travel, but make it optional by putting in boats, carriges, caravans etc, and guild guides and teleportation magic. Make horses more easy to handle, and faster than the character. Implementation is one of the most important subjects to discuss, since it is what we fans always [censored] about.

edit: the last paragraf may be a bit provocotive, so I removed it...

There was plenty of that stuff in Smugglers caves and the like.


Game mechanics. The game world is small enough to be traversed in an hour real time, its just to create the illusion of size.



When most of us say there was no alternative, what me mean is that fast travel in Oblivion made no reference to the game world, almost like a beta test device. It was assumed you would look at the map markers, it was assumed you would fast travel there. You could walk, or Fast-travel there, but there was no boats, guildguides, markrecall, or caravans. Yes, we can walk, but we'd like an RP friendly way of getting there. In a world like this, its ridiulous that the centre of the empire is limited to horseback or walking.

Gallowglass's use of walking to avoid it works, but we need some middle ground between the two. No mage is going to walk, no sailor us going to go by horseback.

I was going to say it could also be simulated travel using a horse, or some other transport, but that wouldn't work. I still justify it as walking, then.



Every single one of those things you mentioned was in Oblivion's dungeons. Many of them were only in forts, caves, and mines, but most are also in Ayleid ruins.



They're not the same as evidence, they are based on evidence, and the evidence is found in the game. It's the same as translating something written by Vivec, or Mankar Camoran, so you are able to work out what it means - the evidence is there, it just needs to be made sense of.



Not really. I've managed to not use fast travel because the most interesting parts of Oblivion don't include the loading screen. However, they do include the scenery, dungeons, and random things that happen on the roads. It is entirely possible to not use fast travel, so I don't know why people say it isn't optional when not a single NPC or game mechanic is forcing you to use it.

What I do in my game shouldn't affect what anyone else does, and, with the current system, it doesn't. I have no idea why people would want to change the number of options available to others, especially when they demand more for themselves and other hardcoe Morrowind fans.



How many bandits have you seen, that didn't have others nearby? The evidence that they can't walk side to side is their legs - they can bend in two different places, and if one of them stepped to one side, then the silt strider would have to regain its balance before it could continue.

It's the same with running - if its legs moved forwards any more than insect's legs can move in front of them as they're walking, it would fall.

No, silt striders are supposed to scuttle, like huge spiders.

Their legs are too close for them to move anywhere near as fast as spiders, and too thin when you consider how heavy the top part of them would be.