'Argument,' as in point of view and how people support it. I've never used these words right, I just copy how other people use them



Morrowind's dungeons do have different rooms which give the impression that they were used, I'll admit that. But so did Oblivion's dungeons. Whilst this was most obvious in the forts, and the caves, it was also present in many of the Ayleid ruins. The goblin caves are actually quite sophisticated.

There are distinct rooms, such as barracks, armouries, throne rooms, eating areas, kitchens, treasuries, entrance halls, and defensive positions in many of them, complete with furniture and appropriate objects that didn't even appear in Morrowind.



The Dwemer disappeared in 1E710 (or it was near there). The Ayleids were no longer the rulers of Cyrodiil a long time before then, and although they still had a presence, it was essentially meaningless in the Cyrodiilic Empire.

The Ayleids would not have used ovens, as they thought that fire wasn't pure, and they would have had little need for currency, regardless of whether they could make it or not, as a barter economy would have been far more practical in such a violent society.

And we know that the Ayleids also hid their treasure behind security systems.



Before I answer many other points, I think it's odd you haven't come across that in the game. How much of Oblivion have you actually played?

Instant gratification that cost you money for your safe conduct. Anyway, could you really see a group of bandits attacking a silt strider

Anyway the value of the system is believability, I can't come to terms with the free teleportation that is the Oblivion fast travel system. The Morrowind on is better from my perspective because I find it less immersion breaking and because it isn't an easy, no consquence means to get anywhere from anywhere else. The explaination that it simulates walking i can accept but, considering the amount you get attacked on the road whilst walking normally you'd have expected Beth to include a random encounter system. Since there isn't one, it's just less believable and it managed to ruin my first play through of the game. (A big thanks for modding community for improving my game for me by the way.)

Onto the main point of this topic, I view Oblivion as a far more gameplay focused experience, there isn't as much depth to the game when it comes to lore etc and that is why Morrowind still does so well on the versus polls, even if people preferred the gameplay from Oblivion. I know that Morrowind has left a far greater impression on me thanks to the fantastic, deep world and backstory. Both are good games but, for me, in a single player game it isn't the gameplay that is going to make me come back and play it again... or spend so much time discussing it on a forum

I've owned it and played it since the day it was released.


I agree that the Ayleids would not have used ovens. However, I'm not following on the "fire isn't pure" line. I appreciate that Ayleid design focuses specifically on magical means of lighting, but where is this "fire isn't pure" philosophy coming from? [Nevermind, just remembered Glories and Laments.] Besides, does a belief that fire is not pure translate to no visible methods of cooking food? After all, according to Glories and Laments, the Ayleids take after the High Elf religion regarding the Elements, and I know of no source that says Altmer have aversion to using fire when necessary.

I still don't see the connection between disjointed and violent society and a non-currency barter economy. Look at pre-Warp-in-the-West High Rock. Countless "independent" baronies scattered every few miles, vying for power and having conflicts to outright war with one-another. Complete and utter province-wide governmential chaos. A provincial motto/joke that says, "Find a new hill [and] become a king." If there is a perfect picture of disjoint and violence, that would be it. And yet currency existed still.

From the invading army perspective, the Ayleids wouldn't have just hid their treasure behind security systems. They would have also hid themselves behind security systems, meaning the invading army would have still had to get around said security systems. And besides, there were plenty of in-game Ayleid loot containers that did not require the bypassing of traps to get at.

Thank you for creating this. Morrowind, while certainly not void of flaws, was superior to Oblivion in terms of depth and uniqueness. You were driven to explore and progress because you never knew what you might find. There was a real sense of accomplishment when you came across a unique item that was ONLY found in a particular spot. And what I thought was particularly cool were the unique items that weren't tied to a particular quest. Oblivion, while much more polished and shiny, lacked this depth and quickly became predictable. I remember one particular instance while clawing my way through my first dungeon. After finally hacking my way to the end of the dungeon, there in the distance stood a lone chest, within it my prize - complete with a ghostly beam of light illuminating a glow upon it. The lock level was hard, and after what seemed like a hundred attempts, I finally succeeded in grasping the treasure for which I had worked so hard to acquire - a head of lettuce!

Morrowind's depth with Oblivion's polished look would make for a great game in my opinion.

Sure. My main problem with it is the immersion - I thought Morrowind's system was more immersive. I see no reason why both couldn't co-exist. I also lament the loss of teleportation spells - they really made the mysticism school worthwhile.

Well the silt striders/boats are part of the world, the menu is not. The silt striders/boats have routes and an associated price the menu does not. The silt strider/boat risk is avoided by using an in-world, established, caravan system with associated "protection and comfort" cost, the menu avoids risk in the same way ~TGM does.

Not really, if you buy the right scrolls or potions. Scrolls of Almsivi Intervention were fairly common loot, as I recall, and you can buy divine intervention scrolls right off in Seyda Neen. In Balmora, you can just as easily purchase potions of marking and recall from Nalcarya of White Haven; it pays to shop around.

First off, I found that Oblivions landscapes were far more diverse, from swamps, to forests, grasslands, and meadows, to dry coasts and vast mountain ranges, as opposed to the ashlands, swamps, and grasslands of Morrowind. Of course all of this was nullified by Oblivion's fast travel. Although it was a smart move from the standpoint of convenience and casual gameplay, it still managed to devoid Oblivion of the actual feeling of a diverse landscape - a lot of people haven't really walked across the landscapes in Oblivion just to witness some of the more beautiful and diverse areas. I feel that a lightfoot approach similar to that of Morrowind, while probably not being as effectively convenient as fast travel, would have made the game much more immersive.

Morrowind has more in the way of diverse content. Plenty of hand-placed loot made it interesting to explore any of the crypts or caverns in Morrowind, even though most were quite a bit smaller than Oblivion. Oblivion has some of this, but not to rival Morrowind, and most of it was only accessible through quests. All the different kinds of armors and weapons found in Morrowind also made it more immersive. In Oblivion, the rate at which loot appears is much to static -- you will never come across a Daedric weapon pre-20s, and once you hit 21 or so, you see Daedric equipment everywhere. Not to mention the diverse nature of enchantments. Oblivion severely limited the nature of enchantments by cutting "On Cast" enchantments, and limiting weapons to have "On Hit" and armor to have "Constant Effect". Also, although Oblivion's cities all had unique architecture, the architecture of Morrowind felt more diverse in the way of architecture due to the actual regional consistency and the abundance of actual towns and settlements.

As a last note, I think the simplified weapon skills were a step in the right direction, although I do miss polearms. And TESV will probably take another step in the right direction by opening skills back up into a more logical structure than Morrowind.

the traps are what surprised me a lot in Ayleid Ruins. I do not know, but having a gass trap in my kitchen a spike-filled hole in teh living room and a gass trap in a bathroom just sounds like a silly idea to me. Since there is no levitation in the game, it must have been pretty dangerous to live in the Ayleid cities.



Well, you have scrolls and various jewelery with these enchantments. and since the enchantments replenish over time you do not have to try very hard to still have a good possibility to run away from danger.

Agreed. Please don't take this as a criticism of Morrowind. It is more of a defense of Oblivion. Oblivion gets trashed all the time for "generic" dungeons, but if you examine them, there is a lot of uniqueness. I'm playing Morrowind, and I haven't gotten through all of the dungeons, maybe not even most of them. But the ones I've been to seem pretty much as "generic" or "unique" Oblivion's.

In addition to the above, you can find a fort inside a cave. An aylied ruin inside a cave. A cave in a fort. A tomb with a network of burial chambers. Some vast cavernous dungeons. Some dungeons with tight narrow corridors. Several dungeons with signifcant stories you discover while traversing them. Giant animals. Etc.

Sure caves are made of rocks, Forts are made of stone. But beyond that level, there is a lot of uniqueness in Oblivion dungeons.

I find Morrowind can be hard for newcomers (no, I will not put it on the pedestal), and it can be very confusing. Also when your a very high level there is no challenge in the game (your power is earned, but doesn't change the point)

I found Oblivion is easy in the beginning and hard in the end (if you don't use efficient leveling), it is simple. I have also found it has a few nice quests like the Brush of Death and Through the Nightmare, Darkly.

To be fair, Oblivion has some generic dungeons, but in all fairness it does have uniqueness.

Morrowind also has some generic hack-and-slash dungeons.

They are both great games, but I prefer Morrowind.

Here is another criticism of Oblivion that I think is unfounded.

If anything I think fast travel in Oblivon is more immersive than Morrowind's system. Why? Because:

1. You never see Siltstriders or Boats travelling, and

2. They are always there waiting just for you. No one else ever seems to be using them.

Fast travel is a simulation of walking. And people in Oblivion are seen walking between cities, unlike Siltstriders. And there should be times on the road when you are not attacked. Fast Travel simulates that.

I just tried the Cyrodiil Transportation System mod for Oblivion. I find it far more immersion breaking than the default. I don't see why people like that.

But maybe I'm the only one that gets my immersion broken by an entire province's transportation system that is only ever used by one character -- the player's character and no one else.

Not only that, amulets enchanted with Intervention/Recall/Mark were readily found.



Depends on the newcomer, really. I didn't find Morrowind confusing at all. I also found that, aside from the expansions, Morrowind ceased to be challenging at a relatively low level.

Fast Travel - could somebody tell me just HOW it is better than a logical traveling system?

Ok ,even if we look away of it being realistic or not, you have to think of how much content that are taking out, just because of a simple fast travel system.

Mark, recall, divine intenvention spells/scrolls/potions, caravans of some sort, ship and boat traveling, mages guild teleportation, a REASON TO SPEND YOUR HUGE AMOUNT OF GOLD ON. All of these things are taken away in oblivion.

They both have their ups and downs, more so then other, and they provide me decent entertainment and great story. But I would face the fact. I would find my self not playing both game in a long term until I get curious again after playing so many different games. The one and true reason I would reconsider playing both games in a huge amount of time are mods. These, way I see it, is one of the main reason why both game still here today with a decent amount of PC players.


I would have to disagree. I would consider that ya give alot less credit, or in way, ignore Oblivion completely, if one consider to find Morrowind's traveling system "less immersive" compares to Vanilla Oblivion's "traveling system". They both simulate the travel, but I find it that traveling model in Morrowind is more immersive mainly because such service is there; it exist. Mage offer anyone to use their teleporting spells or people horse riding or event seeing a carriage usage for NPC when on walking by.

To me, there is a limit to how much I want to see myself traveling to Point A to Point B. Seeing the whole trip is too much "simulation" on it self. Simply get a ride and ya there.

As for Number two, its there for the player to use, but its also a service. Off-Screen, these service could be use by someone else.

The way I see it in term of "Fast travel" in Oblivion, its just clicking Point a to Point b without any form explanation and one HAVE to come up with such idea. At least with some form of service, explanation is easier said, not to mention a good use of Drakes within the process.

Morrowind's travel system was fast-travel, too. Enough hair-splitting. How is Oblivion's better? Reduced number of loading screens. Traveling from point A to point B in Morrowind often meant multiple jumps.

You've got a good point on the money-sink issue.

The problem there, though, is that it did a terrible job of simulating "walking." For one, you were healed along the trip as if you'd been in rest mode, so you're not so much walking as "sleeping in a bed with wheels that rolls you to your destination." It's not just "times on the road you're not attacked," either. You are never attacked. You are never tired, injured, or lost. You can travel anywhere from anywhere, from the mountains at one corner to the bay at another, over and over and over, without the slightest chance of even the tiniest inconvenience. Walking is supposed to be harder than other means of transportation; that's why people invent those other means in the first place.

Morrowind's travel had similar problems in that it was the same insta-trip, just on a smaller scale and for a small fee, but you didn't feel it as much. There weren't really any bandit attacks in Morrowind, and those smaller monsters running around would probably not attack a 30-foot insect, or swim out to attack a boat, and obviously wouldn't appear in guild teleports. Try to walk anywhere in Oblivion and you'll be knee deep in corpses before you're halfway there, the world just won't leave you alone. You wouldn't expect travel services to get lost, since it's their job to work a certain route, and obviously if you're sitting on the strider or in a boat, you're not wearing yourself out in any way. I've got no problems with walking-based fast travel (and in fact have gone into detail in the past on how to implement it), but the way it exists in Oblivion fails to actually simulate any factor of walking.

I'd be very interested in reading that, if you've got it stashed somewhere and can repost/PM it.

Oblivion was great - for an hour or so. I was hypnotized by the fact that Patrick Stewart was in it (as I didn't expect it) and my escape from the prison was semi-exciting. The graphics were top-notch superb, and so were the ambient sounds & sound effects. My very first complaint on my initial run through was that the (sun) lighting was too bright, and made my skin tone look like a white sheet of paper. During the character creation process there is absolutely no way to know how you will look in sunlight, making self admiration very difficult. Add to that the extremely mismatched body part coloring, and you have... a mess. On Xbox, making a character that looks halfway normal in direct sunlight is a damn frustrating process.

Morrowind on the other hand had a brief but very informative start. Step off the boat, get inprocessed, you're free. My mind was stunned at the possibilities out there. The character creation is of course primitive, with very few choices. Most heads and hairs are hideous and not much to look at. The bodies (and underwear) look like they're carved out of wood. But what you choose is what you look like - nothing like Oblivion, where you can say I didn't know I was going to look like that! I need a do-over... The sounds were fantastic; the thunder always makes me jumpy.

That's my 2 septims on the first half hour.

The Fast-Travel system in Oblivion can easily simmulate walking.... Almost everywhere in Cyrodiil there's a good road nearby wich is protected by the Imperial Legion.... Things like carriages and bus-like things aren't needed in Cyrodiil since Cyrodilic roads are safer.... You can see often people that just walk the roads of Cyrodiil wich you can't say of Vvardefell of wich every NPC you encounter in the wild is either robber, a robber or a naked nord.. Even the countess of Leyawiin travels on the roads of Cyrodiil.. Also Cyrodiil has on almost every roads inns wich could easily explain why your character is rested at the end of the travels.... Also Cyrodiil has horses wich can be used to outrun every bandit you come across....

Besides you forget that Siltstriders can easily be attacked by cliffraces.. and I'm not only just talking about the beast itself but also the persons in it... How would that simulate rest since there would go alot of journey's through Cliff Racer nests... Besides... if a bandit or two had an axe or sword they could easily chop down two legs of the Silt Strider since the beasts don't have any protection at all since all travelers are locked away on the top of the beasts.... Boats could also be easily attacked since the water of Morrowind had the water dreugh wich are quite aggresive....

I think both fast travel systems fits each game perfectly...
Morrowind is a game mostly pointed towards the exotic island you need to discover and wich holds many secrets.. while Oblivion isn't such game.... Cyrodiil is a much more organised world and the game is much more pointed towards grandness... And that's logical since Cyrodiil is more a place of the Imperial Legion, large cities and the empire.. While Morrowind is much more concetrated on isolated villages and ashlander camps... The only real safe places on Vvardenfell is the coast and almost every settlement wich you can reach by transport lies on the coast.. except the Redoran towns wich are able to protect themselves in the inlands of Vvardenfell...

Except that it doesn't really simulate walking.

Take into consideration that;
- If you are walking, your health will not regenerate, whereas if you fast-travel, it does.
- If you are walking, you are VERY likely to encounter some sort of bandit or beast despite the presence of the Imperial Legion, regardless of which road you take. This NEVER happens when you fast travel.

Even if you ignore all of that, then you must still consider why walking would be the only means of travel (besides riding a horse). Alternate means of transportation would still be desirable (at least by a good number of citizens in Cyrodiil) because, more often than not, it is faster and safer than travelling by foot. This seems especially true when you consider that Cyrodiil is a great deal larger than Vvardenfell.



This is a fair point. Though, I doubt bandits would try to do battle with a creature that is the size of a house, particularly if they don't really know if the passengers are carrying enough loot to make it worthwhile. Besides, assuming that the legs of a silt-strider are any less formidable than the trunk of a tree, or any less capable of skewering an attacker with one swift blow without sufficient evidence to suggest otherwise, could be a deadly miscalculation on the part of the bandit. Cliffracers, on the other hand, probably wouldn't be so discerning. However, I imagine that the sheer size of the silt-strider keeps the cliffracers at bay, which might also explain why I've never seen a cliffracer start a fight with a netch. :shrug:

As for why dreughs don't attack boats, I am not aware of any good explanations why they wouldn't. On the other hand, I see no particular reason why they would. The best they could do is beat the underside of the boat, as they are unable to walk on the surface of the water. Given that boats in and of themselves do not pose any threat to the dreugh, there seems little reason for them to attack.

I've always thought that MW is a better RPG (much more options for RP) and Oblivion is a better game (gameplaywise).

MW
+ more quests, more guilds, more options, better speechcraft and mercantile, all the "classical" RPG elements are there, just generally more "huge adventure" feel
- graphics and NPC AI (basically just walking "infoboxes"), at times little boring (too much walking which is too slow), combat is boring

Oblivion
+ general gameplay is better than MW (especially combat), less quests but better scripting, introduction of skill perks, graphics and landscapes are breathtaking still, AI is buggy but realistic at times NPCs does not feel like walking infoboxes anymore
- less everything than in MW, not so good in RPG-sence, retarted player centric level-scaling fortunately can be repaired with mods, stupid minigames which get old too quick

I've never put either game top of eachother. They are both masterpieces different kind of way.

As far as the public transport (or lack thereof) in Cyrodiil goes, I always wondered why the ships do not work like taht. I mean, at least in the IC we have ships and docks as well as in Anvil. So why are there no ships transporting people at least between thsoe two ports?

Because you would have to sail across half of Tamriel.... It's like having a ferry from the East Coast of the States to the West Coast....( only not so extreme but it's the same idea)



Not really.... It's true that Morrowind has more quests and Guilds but that doesn't make it a better RPG.... It's also true that The minigames of Oblivion are stupid... Anyway Morrowind doesn't really has much more choises, you can skip things but most people forget that the Oblivion MQ also has certain quests running at the same time... mainly when you're Taking jobs from both Jauffre and Martin.... you can choice wich cities to help or help not with the Oblivion Crisis.... And you can choice if you first help out jauffre and the Empire or help Martin with getting his stuff..... During the quest to get the fourth book of the Mythic Dawn you can choice to either contact the agent or sneak up behind and protect Baurus.... During the quests of Umbacano you can either collect all the ayleid statues or start at his other requests.... You can give the artefact either to the bounty hunter during his quests or fight them all..... You can choice wich of the crowns you give to Umbacano....You can choice to either help the rich lady with the amulet or the imprisoned man during Two Sides of coin..... You can either give Methredel the book or steal it from her... You can either defeat Selene in Conversation or Combat... With the Dark Brotherhood you can choice to either do the special-reward giving way of the quest or just swing your weapons at everything and everyone you come across.... You can choice wich beasts to fight in the Arena and wich raiment you can wear.... And there are ALOT more.... And I didn't even got to SI where you have to choice always between Mania and Dementia.....

Many Morrowinders always have this arguments about Oblivion like that you have more choises Morrowind then Oblivion or there is almost no lore in Oblivion or the dungeons of Oblivion are all generic... well Those people who think never really looked to Oblivion at what it was and didn't even took to effort to see those things just because two caves share the same textures.... So before you say those things about Oblivion again just try and play Oblivion and you really see that Oblivion has as much things to choice as Morrowind and that the dungeons are as unique as the dungeons of Morrowind....