Putting in another "system" like Morrowind's wouldn't be that hard. Just pay somebody for a day or two to set up a bunch of NPCs with teleport scripts, and you shut up that entire segment of the population. Keep Oblivion's style for those of us who like it, and Morrowind's for those that feel it's more "immersive". The forum shuts up, and everybody wins.

As far as the whole "Morrowind or Oblivion" question, I like both. I like Oblivion better as a game, because the combat system is much less annoying aside from the leveled enemies. I like Morrowind better as an "let's go explore everywhere" sandbox, because Oblivion's total random/leveled item placement kills my enthusiasm for wandering.

A logical travelling system which only the player seems to use? A logical travelling system which never actually travels? A logical travelling system that sends boats through areas that the lore claims are impossible to get around by boat, or where smugglers would be a threat? A logical travelling system that means there are no enemies when you get in a silt strider, or doesn't even explain how you're supposed to get out when you arrive at your destination - some of those towns had a large distance between the silt strider and where you were supposed to get on them.

It may be more simple, but Oblivion's fast travel can be described as walking, which is far more logical.



Caravans weren't in Morrowind, either. There are few destinations for ships. Only one Mages Guild in Cyrodiil teaches Alteration, and there is content that provides travel to the different Mages Guilds, anyway. And, yes, why did you have a huge amount of gold? Because one cuirass, which a powerful character could get hundreds of, was worth tens of thousands of septims.



Unless they're just fortifications, which is a theory that I have considered, but have little proof for other than the presence of Ayleid ruins on the surface. But have you considered that many of these traps would only have been activated in defence? The Ayleids were skilled mages, and would have been capable of creating a basic system of triggers - those are even in the game.



Then the journal in Morrowind was also not part of the world. The menu is just a map, really, and information about your character. It's perfectly realistic for someone to know what race and gender they are, don't you think? And these routes you mention are also not part of the world, as is the established system, which seems there only to serve the needs of the player character.



Not really interesting, but you can't say they're not beautiful. There's a road near Namira's Shrine, and if you follow it and look towards the Imperial City (you can even follow it from near Desolate Mine), you'll want to take a screenshot and put it across your computer screen. It's the best scenery I've ever seen in a game, and I honestly can't tell it apart from what I can see in my garden if I look at it from the right angle.

But to say that Oblivion is completely lacking in interesting places is incorrect. There are ruined forts, abandoned houses, burned towers, stairs, paths into the mountains that aren't on your map, and even the occasional campsite (or flagpole) that you can find if you do some walking.



Actually, I think that your character's health is a way that Bethesda accidentally made the journey seem longer than the few seconds it actually took. If you were walking across the seven hundred miles from Cheydinhal to Anvil, and you went the same speed as a Celtic warband (about twenty miles a day), you wouldn't be wounded when you arrived. That's the theory, anyway. In practice, it depends on many other things, but as they are not implemented in either Morrowind or Oblivion, it would be a waste of time to consider them.

There was also no enemies when you used a silt strider. Bandits, maybe, would avoid them, although it would be perfectly possible for Ashland raiders to bring one down, as they've done many times, if the silt striders that they seem to have hunted can be accepted as lore, but creatures would not. And if you're on a boat, there are smugglers and raiders that are never even seen in the game.

It seems that walking is the only means of travel because there is an Oblivion crisis. There is no travel between the cities, so there's no business for caravans. And, although Cyrodiil is larger than Vvardenfell, its roads are far more useful. They actually take you where you want to go, and evidently more money was spent on them. They're also patrolled, even if that doesn't seem to have an effect in the game when the player isn't in the same area.



They might not, but they'd be able to if they were agile enough to avoid being crushed. The Ashlanders seem skilled at hunting things of a similar size, and as many bandits are Ashlanders who have been exiled from their tribe, you'd expect at least some to attempt it. I don't think they care about the loot, who says they don't need basic supplies?



This suggests that you didn't even play through the tutorial, as you get a chance to do it again, in more or less the same sort of lighting that you'll find in most parts of the game, when you reach the exit of the sewers.



That simply didn't happen. Morrowind's system was more exclusive to the player than Oblivion's fast travelling was, as no NPCs moved between cities according to the player's location, and the time in the game.

It seens more unrealistick to me to have horse stables and ships without even having them for transportation for a little gold, and have mages erase teleportation and levitation spells completely.

The teleportation I don't know why they removed, but we know the levitation spell was missing due to the way the game engine handled the cities. That's not an oversight, it was a technical limitation.

Teleportation? You need two people to do it, and only one Mages Guild in Cyrodiil specialises in alteration. And you can buy horses and use them, so I don't know what you mean there.

teleportation is Mysticism (but that's also just one guild)

The biggest reason what I think teleportation is removed is probably because of the fact since it is mostly a cheat during combat so you can flee... In Oblivion you're also aren't able to fast travel during combat...

I agree with Gallowglass at everything and she's tottaly right....

It's true that most boats are at locations they woud neverget out or even reach their destinations.... Silt striders don't travel in Caravans and are often killed by creatures and warriors (go to Molag Amur or Ald'Ruhn and see for yourself) And that makes it quite unrealistic.....

The fact that Oblivion's fast travel resembles walking ow.... and here... it gives the player CHOICES... something that Morrowind lacks..... People who like it use it can use it.... I you don't you can easily buy a good horse and within a few minutes you've traveled from Leyawiin to Bravil, while youcan easily ignore every bandit.... I always got bored of Morrowind when I needed to go grom Gnisis to Ald Velothi.... the character moved really slow.... and I couldn't enjoy myself with the pretty landscape since the landscape only lasted for a few feet... In Oblivion I've also traveled alot using no fast traveling...The character moves fast enough with it's horse and the landscape is beautifull and stunning... and a bandit fight once in a while is really fun.. espacially when you come across an imperial legionary who comes to help you... the only encounters you get while travelling Vvardefell are cliffracers and we know how much people love those......

Considering that fleeing during combat when you get in over your head is a perfectly viable option, and that one can usually flee far enough to be able to fast-travel, I strongly disagree with that statement. The more likely reasons the developers dropped teleportation:

1) New fast-travel system makes it redundant
2) Teleporting from a dungeon can wreak havoc with any scripts running within
3) Teleporting can prematurely end guard pursuit

I still wished they could have found a way to implement it though.

I agree with those three... but running away isn't as easy as just casting a spell.....

In the realism department, it's already been established that Fast Travel wins. However, no one can say that relying on Fast Travel won't inevitably make the game less immersive; even though Cyrodiil is (quite) larger than Vvardenfell, most people find that it feels smaller because there is considerably less exploration than in Morrowind. I've finished all the major quest lines (MQ, Guilds, Arena), and explored maybe 15% of Cyrodiil. Morrowind actually demanded much for foot travel, which is unfortunate, because Cyrodiil's landscapes are far more interesting, though most players wouldn't say so probably because they've never really seen what there is.

One thing that probably would have made Fast Travel more immersive is the removal of automatic city markers. In any case, I think a better direction altogether in a future game would be to bring back travel methods like Morrowind's, but actually implement the chance of being interrupted on the way of manual transportation, and maybe seeing npcs utilizing these travel methods.

I'm against interruptions for technical reasons: it would mean more loading screens.

Brilliant. I own the game.
THE LIGHTING VS SKIN TONE ISSUE THAT I MENTIONED IS AFTER YOU EXIT THE SEWERS.
The sun is very bright. Wow, I'm a ghost. 2 hours wasted on restarts/reloads to find a skin tone that looks reasonable. Get it?

You don't have to come up with an explaination. It is there for you. Fast travel in Oblivion is a simulation of walking. Just like fast travel in Morrowind is a simulation of riding. Same thing. Except in Oblivion I see other people walking. I never see other people riding in Morrowind.

Lets face it everyone, we have to pretend people are riding silt striders, or using teleportation. In Oblivion, we have to pretend there are hundreds of thousands of people in the Imperial City. Morrowind's is more organic persay. But Oblivion's is built for the casual gamer.

For me OB has always been the retreat to game. Whenever im bored of morrowind i just go threw the MQ of oblivion get to level 50 or so and then go back to morrowind as for streangths and weaknesses i think ob's best thing was staves worst thing being combat system and for morrowind best thing leveing system and worst thing, graphics. Although witht he graphics that is something morrowind could not help to to be fare i think the worst thing was including some skills where they shouldnt be. I.E. staves in blunt weapon so a mage has the same power with a warhammer as a barbarian.

And that's the stereotype reaction of any Morrowinder who never took the change to even look at Oblivion and only stayed shallow in the game.....

I agree with this completely, and I fail to see why those who defend Oblivion's means of fast travel continually ignore the fact that Oblivion's fast travel was not the same as if you were walking. If you walk anywhere in Oblivion, you would be hard-pressed to not encounter some kind of bandit or beast along the way. Also, you do not regenerate health by walking in Oblivion, yet if you fast travel, you arrive at your destination regenerated as if you had slept along the way. If this were the case, and you took refuge at an inn along the way, then wouldn't it take longer to get to your destination (than just walking without taking any rest-stops)? This was not the case. Anyone who is willing to be reasonable knows this to be true.




I think we can all come up with theories to explain what is otherwise not explained in the game. But making such extrapolations is akin to throwing feces at the wall in hopes that something will stick in an effort to help support/fortify our own positions. My problem with Oblivion's dungeons wasn't because they were bland or boring. But, as ThatOneGuy pointed out, the dungeons did not feel as though they had any purpose to them. It didn't feel like past civilizations had lived in them, whereas Morrowind's dungeons felt like they had a purpose. That is to say, they felt 'lived in', and the loot you found more often than not fit the environment/situation.



The problem here is that, if the distance was really as great as a few hundred miles, then it would take several weeks to traverse, not a single day or less. Daggerfall had a similar method of fast travel (as in you could 'walk' to your destination), but there was a chance of being attacked, plus it took a good deal of time and sometimes cost some money. I think had Bethesda implemented fast travel in Oblivion in such a manner, you would see few complaints about it not being realistic or immersive. Also, if you were to travel cross-country for twenty miles a day, then you probably wouldn't reach your destination being fully rejuvenated. This is not even taking into account that your chances of being attacked (and injured) increases the longer the journey you take.



I'm fairly ignorant when it comes to lore, so I can't say whether or not it was common practice for Ashlanders to hunt silt striders. However, I can't see any pressing reason why they would when there is plenty of other prey that is easier to hunt and would meet their needs. But once again, we are merely throwing theories back and forth, and my statement regarding theories stands in either case. That said, I can't make any real sensible conclusions why raiders/bandits would bother attacking people traveling by silt strider or boat when they could focus their efforts on much easier targets -- lone adventurers travelling by foot on well-established roads.



Yet there are people who still travel along the roads despite there being an Oblivion crisis. And if there is no need of caravans, then how do the people of Cyrodiil get their goods, I wonder? After all, it does not seem apparent that all of Cyrodiil's cities/towns have all the means necessary to be self-sustaining. As for the statement that I have italicized, even if we assume that it is true, I fail to see any relevance, nor do I understand the point that is being made.

While I don't agree with Zalphon, it is a fact that Oblivion was gered towards an broader consumer base than morrowind... We even got the developers words on that. I started with morrowind, and after all the political play that is in the game (drug smuggling, anti outlander movement, the houses, guild interplay and the ashlanders) oblivion may look a bit flat. Oblivion on the other hand have more involved quest lines, joining quilds are not just a job anymore. And the NPCs talk. Sure, they do it in uninspired and poorly put together sentences, but for some that is a big thing for the atmosphere of the game. In that regard it is more fleshed out.

When it comes to the travelling system, the fast travel really put me off oblivion for a long time. Its not that I like the long treks in an inhospitable ashland that is morrowind, it's more that I find it unrealistic that Cyrodil, the heart of the empire, doesn't have any travelling services. THAT is [censored]. In morrowind you never saw NPCs travel, and never saw boats/striders other than in port, but it was an older game, with less advanced technologies. It would have screwed up the computers of old.

But the biggest thing for me is that the teleportation spells had to go. Mages are poorly protected, and since invisibility for some reason is a lvl 50 + spell(why?) a low level mage have no means to escape a sticky situation. In morrowind, standard practice for a mage is to set a recall point near the entrance of a cave, so he/she can escape if it gets to hairy in there. Same is true for the lack of levitation. I know it is because of the state of the cities, and I am sure that it could have been solved somehow if a little effort were put into it, instead of going for the mini games and level scaling...

edit: some grammer and spelling

Some consider fleeing a part of game strategy, particularly since the damage isn't nerfed in Morrowind and combat is far less predictable than it is in Oblivion due to not being able to block or hit every single time. But if what you say is true (I don't remember as it has been a couple of months since I've played Oblvion), then I'd say 'kudos' to Oblivion for adding an element of challenge to combat.




I take issue with this statement as there is no hard evidence of HOW any particular silt strider was killed. For all we know, they could have died from natural causes or starvation.



I don't see how Oblivion's fast travel offers any choices. It's either; walk, ride a horse, or fast travel. If you don't wish to walk or ride your horse (neither of which are fast travel options), then what other option is there? There are no boats, caravans, guild teleports, or even a flying mount (blech). The fact that your character can eventually outrun your horse seemed more unrealistic and ridiculous to me than anything, not to mention that it completely negated the point of owning a horse. On a related note, arguing that fast travel was 'optional' in Oblivion is similar to arguing that flying from Los Angeles to Las Vegas for free is 'optional'. Sure, one could walk the entire distance, but why would you when you can cover the same distance faster and for free?

Again, I take issue with your statement. I've put 200+ hours into Oblivion, and I find it 'dumbed-down', or rather, 'simplified', when compared to Morrowind. I still enjoy Oblivion, but if I'm going to be completely honest, I was disappointed with it because it seemed to be made to appeal to the broader market rather than to its fanbase.

Don't you know it's optional?<sup>*


*</sup> -- Not optional in the "Should I eat steak, lobster or chicken?" way, but optional in the "Should I eat or not?" fashion.

Ditto. I rabidly played Oblivion when it first came out and I also put in hundreds of hours. Oblivion's a great game and I enjoyed it, but that enjoyment failed to surpass what Morrowind brought.

I "took the change" (or chance, I assume you mean?) to play Oblivion through to the rather unsatisfying end of the Oblivion crisis, and still don't see what you're basing your opinion on. PLEASE don't start bashing the other posters or this topic will get closed like the last 483 of them......

It's not that Morrowind's sytem was perfect, but Oblivion took transportation completely in the wrong direction. The earlier games either had an "integrated" transportation network (MW) or an element of risk for taking the "easy way" across a map that was far too large to travel any other way (DF). Adding horses to Oblivion, while it may have been a great improvement from a "believability" angle, was totally useless from a travel perspective. They were typically slower than your character could walk, and harder to steer, so they made travel even MORE tedious. Since the "integral" transportation options (caravans, boats, Guild Guides) were removed between MW and OB, you had no other options but to walk (or crawl on horseback) the whole way across the map or use FT. Sure, I had a choice to use it or not. I've got a choice to drive 25 miles to work each day or to walk, but that's no REAL choice, because the one just isn't practical. The complaint most MW players have is that there was something which worked and was entirely believable, and it was scrapped in favor of something which also "works" but is pretty hard to believe. Both could have existed simultaneously for that matter, and everyone would have been happy, but as it is, there really ISN'T a choice, in spite of comments to the contrary.

It's not what was added that MW players are complaining about, it's what was taken away.

Hmm I guess your right.... Believe me, if I had to choice between Morrowind's FT or Oblivion's I would say Morrowind but The game still needs horses... I'm not saying that Morrowind's FT is bad.... I'm saying that Oblivion's isn't bad either and fits well in the game wich isn't more unrealistic then others..... Both have many unrealistic points.... but heey... Both are games they're supposed to be unrealistic....If it was 100% realism the only crisis the Nerevarine and the CoC would deal with was the economic crisis..... Anyway what I want to say is that Morrowind FT is really good and I would prefer it (Although characters in MW moved to slow.... on the other hand Oblivion's moved (eventually) way to fast) but Oblivion's FT is also good and can easily be a fastened hike or horseride....

Unimportant to you, perhaps. We're discussing different forms of getting places quickly and their psychological impact. The mana issue is to me an indication of why I've not felt comfortable with fast travel and not really the heart of the matter. With guild guides and the various forms of Mark and Recall transit was instantaneous. With ships and siltstriders, my character was safe in the driver's care. I find Oblivion's form of fast travel lacking in the rationale department.

Except that you will never ever ever ever ever ever get attacked on a Silt Strider in Morrowind.