To the guy who said Oblivion Argonians looked like Trandoshans. They didn't look like them, they were them! Morrowind argonians with constant-effect water-breathing and we're perfect!

I really think that the, "but I want to wear helmets/boots!" argument is silly. It's not like being restricted from these two pieces of armor is going to substantially gimp your playing experience. Nor do I think it is, in any way, an insult or rushed concept - I mean, I thought making characters with their own limitations, whether part of the gameplay or otherwise roleplayed was part of the fun? Yes, open-face helmets and other bits of equipment specially fitted for Argonians and Khajiit would be even better. But I would never vote for Oblivion's silly humanoid beasts just because I miss wearing shoes.

Don't forget, Oblivion merged gauntlets and did away with pauldrons entirely. I think the reduction in equipment slots is part of the reason why the need to have helmets and shoes for the beast races became such an urgent matter.


The Daedroth in Morrowind was perfect - despite its beastial appearance, it still walked upright (albeit with a hunch) and had a very Egyptian look to it. The ones in Oblivion looked like giant plush dinosaurs. I guess that's the consequence of having too many polygons. Everything gets soft and loses its edgy feel. Felt this way about the Clannfears and the Scamps as well :shrug:

The thing is, it's not even hard for Bethesda to create boots for the beast races, if Morrowind's system is used. There have been mods in Morrowind before that allow the use of boots for beasts by removing the shoe section, and just leaving in the ankle. If it can be make so simply by modders with a system that doesn't intend for beast boots, surely, Bethesda can manage it on the whole new system.

The whole "I want to wear all armour" argument is completely invalid, because;

• It is so simple to fix and Bethesda aren't idiots
  
• As you said, not having these armours aren't exactly going to ruin your character completely.

I prefer Morrowind's Argonians, mostly because of thier unique speech patterns (using the plural we and us, instead of I), really made them sound like an 'alien' race. In Olbivion they just sounded like hissing humans. Same with Khajiit, admittedly the Argonians and Khajiit of Cyrodill would be mainly naturalised but they ought to retain a basic 'difference' simply because they've got a different evolutionary history to humans and elves, ie they should think differently, because their brains are different.

Morrowind, definitely. As many thers have said, they simply look a lot less "human" than in Oblivion.

Permanent water-breathing makes no sense for a reptile. They should just be able to stay under way longer, like a crocodile or turtle.

Morrowind's spell mimicked that, because casting it cost nothing anyway. But it would be nice if it was just inherent.

Simply turning off the breathe bar for Argonians in Oblivion seemed, to me, like the path of least resistance for getting it done quickly.

EDIT:
I guess the main point of what's being said here, in general, is that it's way better when every race gets individual attention as opposed to one head and body with a choice of colors and textures.

Argonians are amphibious and they have gills, so why would they only be able to breathe underwater for 120 seconds after casting a spell? Morrowind's version mimicked it incorrectly(a spell limited in time makes no sense when mimicking the ability of Argonians to breathe underwater). Honestly, would it kill people to say one good thing about Oblivion? Water Breathing exists as a spell in Oblivion. Giving it to Argonians would not have been more difficult than having Argonians permanently breathe underwater.

lol, Argonians are a race of highly evolved reptiles. Play Daggerfall.

I loved the Morrowind selection of the horns/ears that is why I have to go with Morrowind. I do like the Oblivion graphics and sounds way more but they took alot of thing out of Oblivion that they should have left in.

I played Daggerfall. That's when Orcs were the same brutes they were in DnD and when Tamriel was still an unoriginal place without the fleshed-out lore of its successors. Argonians may have been highly advanced reptiles, but now they have amphibious qualities. They have gills and in Morrowind's manual, it is stated that they are equally at home in the water as they are on land. Oblivion's manual states that they can breathe in water. They've changed just as all the other races have. In Daggerfall, Khajiit were humans with tails and Bosmer weren't known for be annoying. They are reptilian but described as if they were amphibians, and they do have amphibious qualities.

I disagree, sir!

Oblivion is the one with the whacked out lore (where'd Uriel Septim get all that hair :laugh: )? And they are reptiles. Or possibly ambulatory lung fish.

I prefer the Oblivion Argonians under 1 condition, http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=15469.
Nice to have claws, digitigrade feet, spikes, etc.
If not for that mod I would prefer Morrowind's Argonians.

Uriel knew being bald made him unpopular with the ladies, so he gathered the greatest wizards from all the parts of Tamriel and demanded a fix for his hair loss. And so Rogaine foam was born...

Hardly. Daggerfall was pretty fleshed out, about equal to Oblivion. Fixed.


I don't think they are either, they seem to have qualities of both. I'd call them an amphibious reptilian.


:laugh:

Honestly, would it kill you to not assume that everyone is flaming Oblivion because they don't like something? While I agree that Argonians had a better water breathing in Oblivion, I always see you ranting because someone prefers Morrowind's system over Oblivion's in something. Oblivion, just like Morrowind, has flaws. A lot of us feel that Oblivion has more, bigger flaws than Morrowind. Understand that. :rolleyes:

I voted for Morrowind Argonians because they are truer to the feeling of "Beast Race" to me. However, in terms of looks and ease on the eyes, I like Oblivion Argonians but that can just be attributed to oblivions updated graphics engine.

I much preferred the Morrowind "concept", but it was implemented poorly. A little bit of "waddle" might heve been acceptable, or even desirable, but the animation that was released was excessive, and the figures looked "spindly" because of the overly extended feet. The digitigrade legs were a big "positive", but the lack of proper footwear and the bad animations definitely detracted from it.

Oblivion's Argonians were like much of the rest of the game: technically "better done", but seriously lacking in flavor, imagination, and anything else which made it interesting.

Beast leggings and helmets could have been handled the way that at least one MW mod did it: you get an Armorer to convert it from a man/mer design to a beast race version or back. That SHOULD be a part of the game, not only between beast race and man/mer equipment, but for male to female armor and back. Adding SIZES would also be a great step: you can't wear most of the random pieces of equipment in the game without either adjusting it yourself (assuming you have sufficient skill) or having the adjustment done by a professional; some would fit you as-is, others would require resizing or alterations. Your choice of character (L/M/S/Beast) should impact how you deal with the world around you; not that it should make things "difficult", but that some things should come more or less naturally based on your starting decisions.

As one Argonian on the Solstheim docks put it, "A pair of boots, is that too much to ask?"

Yeah, I noticed Ocato did himself up, too.

Maybe bald was the "in" look earlier in the third era.

I have mixed feelings. I feel that Morrowind Argonians are more bestial (claws, legs) and that is good; they are a beast race after all.

However, I also feel that they should be able to wear full helmets and boots. That always made me angry that I could not wear my full set of Daedric or Ebony armor. For that reason, I like how the Beast races in Oblivion can indeed wear Full Helmets and Boots.

From a purely visual appearance, I would have to say that I liked the general look of the Morrowind Argonians- they had better looking claws and faces/"hair."

From a gameplay appearance, I would have to say that I prefer the Oblivion Argonians, because they can wear boots and helmets.

Overall, I like the Morrowind Argonians better, because they had some pretty cool hairstyles.

So is the general consensus that Argonians and Khajiit should retain their bestial posture ala Morrowind, while being able to retain all of their equipment slots (and innately breath underwater for Argonians) ala Oblivion?

So far as the reptile/amphibian debate goes...here are the defining characteristics of a reptile:

* They breath air (check - breathing water doesn't technically disqualify them)

* They're cold-blooded (unknown - this is never elaborated upon. Certain reptiles, like Tuataras, are capable of functioning in temperatures below 60 degrees. They require it, in fact. So, in theory, an Argonian could still be cold-blooded and remain functional in cold places like Bruma or Solstheim)

* They lay amniotic eggs, or retain them in their body in the case of live-bearing reptiles (check - Argonians are confirmed to lay eggs)

* They are covered in scales or scutes (check - obviously)

Amphibian, when broken down into its Latin roots, translates to "life on both sides", meaning water and land. Like reptiles, amphibians are cold-blooded and lay eggs. Unlike reptiles, however, their young are born requiring water to survive. They grow into advlts that either remain in the water or land exclusively, or freely pass through both realms. At this time, it is unknown exactly what infant Argonians look like, or require to survive. Thus, we can't rightfully decalre them "amphibians".

The fact of the matter is, "reptile" is the closest we can come to describing them. However, "Argonian" always works better. =)

I don't really have a preference. I don't mind Oblivion's argonians, but Morrowind's argonians where a little more unique in terms of looks, how they walked. Still, as if argonians arn't unique enough allready. I's a big lizard for god's sake

Amphibians lack scales, and I believe it's implied that argonians are born as land dwellers. Personally, I'd say the argonian is pretty much like a crocodile in terms of how they live-ish. And last time I checked the big book of zoology, they're still listed as reptilian.

But now compare the following;

• Nirn
  
• Earth

There is a limit to the amount of realism needed in a TES game. Certain aspects of realism can really damage the games enjoyability. Think about Khajiit. Why would a cat-like creature, that depends on four legged running speed need to walk on two feet? There are certain things that may not make sense, but it doesn't matter. Basically, a permanent water breathing effect is better. Perhaps a longer breath meter would be nice, but, and I'm no expert on programming, but it may be a lot harder to implement, and it may not warrent all the extra development time.

I'm just gonna be a rebel and say they are fish...take that reptile/amphibian debate! :poke:

The only Argonians I like are dead Argonians