10,000 Lemmings can't possibly be wrong.

Combat his horrid, choice of weapons in horribleness, archery is likely the same as latter ones, the storyline and environment are a disgrace, but everything is so boring and unchallenging that is takes conscious effort to keep the game feeling worthwhile. If you are just interested in roleplaying then the restrictions of Oblivion destroy that. Sure Oblivion is a boring medieval setting with a lacking mainquest, but creating characters no matter how hard you try still end up deformed. Yes leveling is pitiful as well as the leveled items and lack of hand placed loot, but the economy and basic game mechanics can't be altered as easily as Morrowind has shown thus making all hope for role playing feel very mundane and thus lacking of immersion.

Our opinions differ greatly.

I see what you did there. Did you literally mean all that, precisely as you describe it here, or did you just get taunted by rabidnid and this is a reaction?

What I meant was that I had almost complete opposite opinions than rabidnid.

He probabbly means you read what I said backwards.

"Combat is better, choice of weapons is better, archery is better, the storyline and enviroment are better, but everything is so easy that it takes a conscious effort to keep the game challenging ."

The above is refering to Morrowind

You people seem to be of the opinion I don't like Morrowind, I love Morrowind I just can't stand its mechanics any more and no longer play it. Oblivion is a lesser game but it is much easier to roleplay. Mods make it a much better game. You lot keep saying that Morrowind is better for role play, but it just allows more diverse characteristics, that is not the same thing.

I'm not sure which is what anymore in this thread...

Ah, you're not talking about flaw of the relevant combat systems themselves. You're talking about the flaw that has existed in every TES game. I think the flaw is a carry-over from TES's transcendance of the 3rd person isometric/1st person turn based rpg games of the 80's and 90's, or at least that's how it started out. Limited tech capabilities in AI and 3D were responsible for the flaw during the early TES offerings (Arena, Daggerfall). The flaw is most readily apparent in Morrowind, and despite relative tech limitations, it can't really be excused. In Oblivion, the flaw recieved some attention from dilligent make-up artists in the form of npc physics and "swing-n-hit" mechanics, but the beneath the surface, the flaw was still present - still festering - waiting to rear its ugly head and ruin the impression of perfection the very instant the gamer saw through the make-up.

It's hard to describe what the flaw actually is though. Indeed, the tea bagging console tards people whose first introduction to rpg mechanics was with Morrowind or Oblivion are often unconvinced that the flaw exists at all. I don't know of a name for it (if anyone can provide one, please do so) so i'm just going to call it the "chess factor" and the flaw that i refer to in TES combat is that there ISN'T a chess factor.

Regardless of whether the combat system is Daggerfall's number crunching or Oblivion's swing-n-hit, the combat is essentially the same. See enemy, hit enemy, drink potion, resume hitting until enemy dead, rinse, repeat. A summon or a paralyse spell is about as complicated as it gets. Regardless of system, it gets old incredibly fast (though admittedly, faster for some than for others). Whereas in more traditional rpg offerings (the best example that i can think of being Baldur's Gate) the combat was tactical and varied, often changing pace mid-battle, the balance sea-sawing to and fro, directly dependant on the actions of player and enemy alike. Much like a game of chess... It wasn't so for all encounters, there were always push-over or throw-away enemies, but these always served to highlight just how tactical the combat was in tougher encounters.

In TES games, we don't get that. Essentially every baddy is a push-over baddy. Some may have more hit points and deal out a bit more damage per hit, but from Vivec to mudcrab, they all follow the same tired formula. Eventually, every encounter becomes a throw-away encounter, being approached in exactly the same way as any other and varying only in the number of potions you had to drink to survive it, and that's when it's at its best. At its very worst, we are treated with encounters like Mannimarco. Raise your hand if he didn't ruin your day for all the wrong reasons . In fact, a better name for the chess factor may actually be the "mannimarco effect"...

That is the flaw and the current trend of dumbification certainly isn't helping the situation. To fix it, Beth needs to go back to the drawing board. The flaw may have been created in the transition from 3rd/1st person turn based to 1st person real time, but the fact that it still exists today is the result of developer laziness and/or lack of imagination. Not that the solution is simple, mind you. The Mannimarco debacle was the result of major failings of several major game aspects. None of them were perfect in Morrowind. Most of them got worse in Oblivion. All of them need a major overhaul in TES V.

Great points Sever 101, and actually I hadnt thought of it that way. Perhaps the problem lies that the creatures in Baldurs Gate made you adapt to them to defeat them while in TES games one shoe fits all, thats what made the encounters so great and memorable in most of the Infinity Engine games, but TES games have never suscribed to any of that and it would really help create a unique fighting experience. For example, if you fought a fire elemental and tried to use your fireball spell it would be useless, and had to resort to ice magic because thats the only thing that would damage it, or perhaps it has a regeneration system that its only slowed down enought to kill it by ice magic. Or perhaps the minotaur is virtually immune to melee damage so yuo have to resort to potions or spells to pump you up to actually cause damage. the possibilities are endless to create a more engaging batlle system. Hell they have even evolved a little with the targeting system used in Fallout 3. I do have hope for TES V because of that

Thank you for this wordy post, Sever, one of the few people who understand what I'm trying to say.

The combat is shallow and it gets old quickly in every game. It just gets old a little less quickly in Oblivion, unless you're the type of person who plays video games to fight a lot of things. And there's nothing wrong with that, I just don't like those types of games and was disappointed when Oblivion was just an enhancement of the most boring aspect of the game, and a downgrade on everything I enjoyed.

They don't even need to overhaul the combat system, IMO, there just needs to be A LOT less of it and A LOT more quests, unique items, factions, towns, dialogue, "boring" mapping out wilderness without running into a fight every 5-10 seconds, books, real consequences, and tons of skills and other character customization options, you know, an RPG.

Ah. I hate this. It was actually one of the things I think may have been more worse in Morrowind. I hated having to kill a scrib/ rat/ cliff racer/ kagouti/ etc. EVERY FIVE STEPS MY CHARACTER TAKES. I feel like they toned it down in Oblivion, but it was still annoying.

Agree on all points, combat is boring. My characters just used short blade and gallons of flin in Morrowind, and a mixture of enchanted blades, home made poisons and spells in Oblivion. Combat is something you get over with to get on with what you were doing. Beth's way of doing this translates across to FO-3 far better than it does to pseudo medieval settings, which is why I suspect there might be a FO-4 before there is a TES V. Likewise I don't want to see a more sophisticated combat system, i will play Witcher for that, just games with more in common with Morrowind and FO-3 that Oblivion.

FO-3 is the model that Beth will follow from now on. a basic game with a basic quest line, and then a series of expansions to milk as much money as possible from the audience. People who where happy with the basic quest line can then move on to other games, but people who liked the game can instead move onto the expansions. Neat, and works really well in FO-3.

You're absolutely right about all of that. I just wish it wasn't happening.

I mean, I actually thought FO3 was really, really fun. And I liked the combat better than Morrowind or Oblivion. But it still focused too much on the fighting, for me.

I guess I just wish the 90's weren't over. That was the best era for RPGs, IMO.

Easiest way to fix that is just stick an extra zero on all of the weapon damage in the GECK. Gun battles take about 5 seconds and critters are no longer a problem. You need to be a lot more careful though at you will only survive about 2 hits before dying.

That's the thing. There's not enough else to do.

It's not that the fights take too long, it's all I'm doing. That's why I resort to being a sneaky guy, which makes it a little more fun. But sneaking past badguys or fighting them, the point is that pretty much all the quests involve a bunch of fighting. And there are a lot less than there used to be.

FO3 at least had one non-combat option for most quests, and I like the special perk choices, kinda, but I want more, more! And less obvious choices, for example:

In Morrowind, there's this guy who owes all the traders in Ald-Ruhn money and can either be killed, or persuaded. But, if you happen to have read Saryoni's Sermons, a new text appears, "offer some words of wisdom from Saryoni's Sermons." ( I think that's the name of the book).

Here's another example:

Every questline in Oblivion I played through was just the same anticlimatic experience for me. Except maybe the Thieve's Guild quest.

In my opinion, that is one of the key things that make or break an RPG for me. If I can't be creative, I enjoy the story (if it's good) then never pick up the game again.

EDIT: Actually, now that I think back on it, pretty much all the FO3 quests were exactly what I'm talking about. But there should be at least 3 times more (quests, that is). And less obvious choices, that aren't spelled out for you, like I said.

Actually, if you drop it and then talk to the guy, he does react. Of course, you can't do anything to expose him, so that svcks.

Do you understand what bias is?

Non-objective appraisal. Hmm, good point. I conclude that all Oblivion fans are biased.

I kind of agree with sever about the combat, there's definitely a lot of options missing, some of it was corrected with the power attack options in Oblivion, but those should be trainable instead of unlockable. If people could customize what they do when they activate a strong attack of some kind, or really what they do with just regular attacks, it would make for greater variety in combat.

Everyone keeps saying that Oblivion has more player skill oriented combat, but I'd say that it is Morrowind that is require more player skill in combat.

actually i enjoy rping on oblivion, i enjoy a sandbox rp, you know ill download some mods say the time is 4E350 then act like there is a plague and wars.

hahaha, and all Morrowind fans are masochists

We (Morrowind fans) get pleasure from pain and abuse? :blink:

Or at least that's what an internet search of the definition says...:unsure:

Oblivion fans and Morrowind fans are both biased towards their game of choice.

I'm just saying that on this forum, there is an overwhelming Morrowind bias. As in, when a poll takes any random game feature and asks, "How should TESV handle it? The Daggerfall way, the Oblivion way, or the Morrowind way?" The majority prefer the Morrowind way.

We believe the reason is, so far, that Oblivion and Morrowind are two totally different games with different strengths. And the majority of the people who started with Morrowind... well, Oblivion isn't their type of game.

Conversely, the majority of people who started with Oblivion, never got into the past games because those games are more in the classic RPG genre, like Morrowind. So, they don't really hang around the TES forums. You'll probably find an Oblivion bias at the Oblivion forum itself, or the xbox.com forums.

Of course this is generalizing, but these are the largest/ most vocal groups of people.

There are also the folks who don't really have a preference. And the folks who are TES veterans who prefer Oblivion, who always get really angry whenever someone implies that Oblivion is more action-oriented than Morrowind. Which is silly, because it blatantly is.

Funny thing is, I believe that there was an OB vs MW poll in the OB forum quite a while back, and that came up pretty close to even. All of the MW forum and General forum polls have come up overwhelmingly in favor of MW.

For a game that has several serious flaws and some very weakly done combat animations, MW does pretty well. Obviously, Bethesda did something right, but Oblivion and FO3 both show that they still aren't quite sure what that was.

I think it was the atmosphere, Kovacius. Oblivion and Fallout 3 just don't have that "Wow, this is a real world with real people and a real culture" feeling. Don't get me wrong, I still love OB and FO3, but they just don't have that magical, lifelike atmosphere.

I'm sorry, did we end up finding a TES veteran who prefers Oblivion? I was watching for it. I'd hate to think i'd missed it...