Yes my dear Tamalak, now you see that in the end its just a matter of taste, you sound like you also prefer Morrowind, but for your own reasons, you dont have to agree with Pseron or me

I wouldn't say that I like Morrowind's combat system, or even prefer it to Oblivion's.

But I can say that Oblivion's got tiresome for me about as quickly as Morrowind's did.

When I play RPGs, I think of combat as something to get over with. Because it's usually a small element of the story of my character and I don't even remember 95% of the battles when I look back on the story of my character.

That's why, aside from relying on character skill, the die-roll based combat system is better for me. Morrowind's was logical and simple; each time you swing your weapon, the dice roll and you get a little "splat" noise if it's a hit and a "whoosh" if it's a miss.

Oblivion's was more reliant on player skill, which I didn't like, but more fun and immersive, which I liked. So it evens out to meh. You really can't have both, though. You have to choose diceroll, which blends nicely into the game mechanics, or actiony, which feels more realistic and immersive. What you have to remember, though, is that even the most beautifully, perfectly developed combat system will get old quick because it doesn't really require any deep thought. If you spend the most time on the combat system, and rely mostly on the combat system and "atmosphere" for immersion, your game won't be very immersive for very long. Those things are novelties and the thrill wears off quickly.

What you want to do is make combat a small aspect of the game and spend the most time cramming as much stuff to do, discover, and join as humanly possible. The player's imagination will do the rest and the game will be immersive for years and years.

In the end, both combat systems take too long, and too much of my time is eaten up fighting animals in the wilderness. Although that could just the fault of the overly rabid wildlife in Tamriel.

Immortal key NPCs? Quest pointer? Horses without a single anti-horse weapon? Axes that behave like blunt weapons? Daggers that behave like claymores? A world designed exclusively in 2D instead of the 3D levitation-intensive world of Morrowind? Guilds that you master after completing five quests or so? If none of those things qualify as "dumbing down" then what would in your book? The one thing that could do with streamlining, the highly counter-intuitive leveling system, is of course one of the few elements gamesas reused. Not only did they re-use it, despite having seen mod-makers create floating leveling systems, they even made EVERYTHING in the entire game world depend on it, though God alone knows how anyone could think highly of that idea.

I'm not going to say that Oblivion was a bad game, because it definitely wasn't, but it was definitely also a dumbed down RPG. There's no way around that. And don't get me started on the minigames. The idea that your personal skill at a minigame should have any bearing whatsoever on how good your character is to pursuade some NPC or at opening locks is just horrendously silly. Besides, what's the difference between clicking on pursuade about 80 times or playing some mindless minigame a dozen times? Yeah, it probably takes longer to play the minigame a dozen times. In other words, instead of mindlessly spending half a minute repeatedly repeating some action, I'm now spending a couple of minutes repeatedly repeating some damn minigame. What's the bloody gain in that?

Edit: And then I read page two of this topic and saw that what I said had pretty much already been said, except by people less blunt than me. Oh well. I'd like to add that I too prefer character-based combat to player based combat. The idea that it's your tactical decisions rather than your clickety-clicky skills that decide the outcome of a confrontation appeal quite a lot to me. That isn't to say that I hate player-based combat but it's just not quite as role play friendly.

I skipped Morrowind when it was released. I was playing Dungeon Siege and Neverwinter Nights in 2002 in between stints of Vice City and Warcraft 3. A friend of mine built a new PC to handle Morrowind's hardware requirements at the time and brought me over to his house to brag about it on several occasions. I was spoiled on Tolkeinesque fantasy worlds, Diablo-style gameplay and a focus on loot for character progression, so Morrowind's foreign game world with its bleak, mushroom-tree-infested ashlands and skill-based gameplay were a bit off-putting at the time. Indeed my first foray into the Elder Scrolls world was with Oblivion when I picked up a GOTY copy at Best Buy in 2008. Since then I haven't gone more than a week without it installed on my system in one form or another.

The mod community keeps Oblivion fresh for me, but after I researched the history and lore of the Elder Scrolls series a bit more I realized I was missing a huge chunk of the "total" experience from never having played Morrowind. I was reluctant to play it based on its age and being spoiled on Oblivion's superior graphics, but after discovering the Morrowind Graphics Enhancer (which in my opinion can sometimes make the game look better than Oblivion) I decided to give it a go and bought the GOTY edition. I know, I know, superior graphics alone do not a good game create, but it's an important part of the package for me. (And let's face it, unless you've got an 8 year old computer, there's no reason not to take advantage of a few high-res texture mods and the MGE team's fine work.) For my first play through I decided against using any other mods aside from graphics enhancers and the Morrowind Code Patch.

From my experience, after having spent 2 solid years in Cyrodiil which is a more familiar forest/grassland/mountain environment with cities reminiscent of medieval Europe, Vvardenfell felt completely alien. I really did feel like a stranger in a strange land. I remember feeling a sense of relief when I discovered Pelegiad with its Cyrodiilic style buildings and Imperial Guard presence after spending so much time in Balmora and its surrounding areas. It felt like a little piece of "home" for a veteran Oblivion player. If one thing about playing Morrwind will stand out in my mind for a long time it's how different the game was in terms of art direction and environment. When the game was released the "look" was a big deal and it still is today.

From a story & immersion perspective I can see why so many people consider Morrowind to be the better game. For certain the NPC's of Morrowind have a lot more to talk about than their Oblivion counterparts. There is a lot more of the fascinating Elder Scrolls lore permeating the conversations in Morrowind and though the NPC's aren't voice acted if you take the time to read everything they have to say you can see distinct personalities. The main story in Morrowind is also quite a bit more intricate and interwoven with the politics & culture of the world than Oblivion's. Yes, the Emperor is dead and the Oblivion Crisis is not a good thing, but all throughout Oblivion I kind of felt like a super-powered outsider coming to the rescue of an empire full of people who were either too incompetent, too apathetic, or too distracted to be bothered to deal with the crisis themselves. In Morrowind's case, even though I was labeled an "outsider" I felt more connected to the world because, I think, the scope was a bit smaller. Dagoth Ur may have eventually planned to conquer all of Tamriel, but at the time his focus was on Morrowind itself and his feud with the Tribunal. I felt that Dunmer culture was more fleshed-out and better integrated than any other, even in the Imperial-dominated Cyrodiil, and because Morrowind's main quest was all about the Dunmer and their history I felt like my actions were part of a larger whole, rather than the save-the-day hero I played in Oblivion.

Still, for as much as I ultimately enjoyed Morrowind, I think Oblivion wins out in some key areas. For one, the magic system in Morrowind was extremely frustrating. Having switch back and forth from combat mode to magic mode took a lot of getting used to and the lack of magicka-regen was a bit of a head-scratcher. I also preferred the combat system in Oblivion over Morrowind's despite its simplicity. The chop/slash/thrust directional combat mechanic felt a bit tacked-on (even though I know it's a holdover from Daggerfall) and never really entered into combat equations for me. Things tended to die in a timely matter regardless of which way I swung. The lack of an active Block skill in Morrowind was also a pretty big hole. I don't like leaving things to chance, especially my ability to shield myself. Each game has its strengths and weaknesses, some more pronounced than others, but after getting to know both of them I'm confident in saying neither game clearly wins. As a vanilla product I think Morrowind showed a lot more depth and character, but the Oblivion mod community has managed to bring the two games closer together.



I agree that combat is a bit too broadly focused in most modern RPG's. It's been a while since there was a game that you could talk your whole way through. Arcanum was the last RPG I played where you could get by with some cash bribes and a silver tongue and the experience was a whole world away from your average run-and-gunsword stat-crunching RPG. Fallout 3 came close, but Todd Howard in a Gamespy interview mentioned it wasn't possible to "reason with enemies that are attacking you." That would be a welcome change to the age-old attack-on-sight formula many RPG's employ. Maybe you can persuade a group of bandits out of attacking you by bribing them, or by having enough fame/infamy to intimidate them out of attacking you. Hell, maybe you could even hire them on as your bodyguards. Are wolves and other predators giving you a hassle? Drop a chunk of that boar meat you're carrying around in your backpack and the predator should go after the easier meal. Stuff like that makes the world more believable. Not everything wants to eviscerate you on sight.

I enjoyed reading that, gfh110. :goodjob:

Not to go too off-topic, but you should give Mount & Blade a try if you haven't. It's something I just discovered, despite hearing about it for years.

There's still too much combat, IMO, but pretty much every single enemy you come across gives you at least one alternate choice to fighting. Even if it isn't always a pleasant choice.

It's very addictive and unique and you must try it if you're into RPGs.

gh110,
Good comment about Arcanum. In MW or OB, or in other rpg games for that matter, morale doesn't really seem to come into it. By that I mean, one's character could be attacked by some creature which turns and flees after taking a solid hit. Same with other marauders like bandits. Say you've handed out a thrashing and the bandit is lying on the ground, you've got a "surrender" scenario. Might be harder to work that into the game, but would be a whole lot more believable. In particular, I recall the episode in Tribunal where I encounter the boss of the Dark Brotherhood. His disposition to me was 65, but he has to fight me to the death. Real life isn't always like that.

In order:
Immortal NPCs- In my Morrowind playthrough (and all subsequent playthroughs), I took the warning when I killed an essential NPC quite seriously, and immediately reloaded an earlier save. So in a way, they were immortal anyway, because unless you want to completely ignore the main quest, those people had to survive

Quest Marker- Much like fast travel, it's an option for those who want to use it, nothing more. If it bothers you, don't use it. But I don't see a problem with adding a guide for people who aren't as "hardcoe" as you. Just like the breadcrumb trail in Fable 2-- I usually didn't use it, but its presence didn't offend me. If more people were able to experience Oblivion because it was there, I'm really not going to complain. Video games don't have to be exclusive to a small, hardcoe niche in order to be good.

Horses- I'm not sure what you mean by anti-horse weapon. I haven't played much of Daggerfall beyond the opening dungeon, so correct me if I'm wrong, but was this feature present in Daggerfall? There's no horse-based combat in Oblivion, so I'm not sure what the purpose of a specifically anti-horse weapon would be.

Axes/Blunt Weapons- Their choice of words wasn't the best, but I understand what they were getting at here. Both axes and maces are heavy weapons, designed to crush as much as they are to penetrate. Lumping them together allowed players to try a wider variety of weapon types without being forced to level up a bunch of different skills.

Daggers- I don't even understand what you're getting at here. Even in Morrowind, daggers were essentially the same as any other blade, just faster and weaker. If anything, I could see you making an argument about them removing slash/chop/thrust weapon values, and I would concede that that was probably a mistake, but I don't know whether that's what you're trying to say.

Levitation- It annoyed me, to be honest. It always felt like I was just turning on noclip and cheating my way across the map, and I never used it except when I absolutely had to, like getting into the Telvanni towers. So I really don't mind that they removed it.

It ultimately boils down to personal preference. I like the action-oriented gameplay of Oblivion, but if you prefer Morrowind's, then I'm not going to spend an hour trying to convince you you're wrong.

I think your missing the point. Its about the possibility of killing them being there that makes the game so much more real. Whether or not you are going to reload is beside the point, the point is they can die just like anyone else and that makes a world immersive.



Streamlining weapon (and armour) types like that may have made it easier on a first try, but they lead to a large loss of replayability. Part of the fun in MW is trying out new weapons, seeing how they work, and that made you feel the character better because your skills are more limited. In OB by taking blade you can be a fighter and an assassin. That just ruined the immersion for me, like any character i had could become a god in every kind of weapon, rather than mastering a single type. Why bother playing through as solely an assassin character when you can pick up a claymore and charge head first into the Daedra?



So because you think it felt like cheating, it shouldn't be in the game? I agree that there should be an option for quest markers and fast travel for those who want it, but why then shouldn't there be spears, axes, crossbows, medium armour, short and long blades etc. for those that want them?

I played Morrowind for 3 or 4 years and then moved on to Oblivion. Morrowind was a great game with a great soundtrack that was exotic with its locations, but with such broken gameplay that it eventually caused me to give up on it. Oblivion has much better game pla, but has two major flaws, it was dummed down from Morrowind too much, and the location chosen made it look like just another pseudo medieval RPG. I remember seeing a survey about a year before Oblivion came out, that only about 20% of people who bought Morrowind ever completed it. The complexity and size of the game were actually disadvantages from most players point of view. All of the changes made to Oblivion where things endlessley whined about on this forum in the lead up to the release of Oblivion, so the forum really got what it asked for. Essential characters, and being able to join all of the guilds with the same character were answers to the biggest whines at the time. There are a lot more people on the FO-3 and Oblivion forums that frequent here for the simple reason that most players and modders have moved on to those games. Morrowind will go the way of daggerfall eventually, its just a matter of waiting for TES V.

That underlined part isn't quite true. All that is required for the MQ is that the dwarf is alive to open up the backdoor into the questline. Then you can go finish off the MQ and then you're done. You don't actually need to go through the trials to finish the MQ. That being said, the point here is choice. In Morrowind, it was your choice if you wanted to live in a "doomed" world or not. In Oblivion, such NPCs are just plain immortal, for whatever sense it makes.


The point is, now you've got this nice little compass that magically tells you exactly where you have to go. Granted, it was a royal pain in the ass to walk around for days without finding the cave you needed to find, but more accurate directions would've been another way to solve this. Instead gamesas decided to simply point directly at where you need to go. Morrowind was an exploration game where you had to think and search unless you had access to a game guide. Oblivion takes that out and gives you the opportunity to just switch off your brain and follow the compas, GTA style. I realise you can decide to not use it, but it still very much demonstrates the change in gameplay. It's not like they couldn't have added place markers on the world map for all the hard to find tombs you have to visit, but they decided not to. Now, in Oblivion, they decided otherwise.


This isn't so much about gameplay as world realism. In a medieval world with horses, even if you're not going through the trouble of adding mounted combat, it seems very strange to have horses with armor when there's not a single anti-horse weapon around. Spears and polearms were widely used as anti-cavalry weapons. When the Empire is fond of using horses, how the heck can they have disinvented the polearm? It makes absolutely no sense. As such, it's demonstrates a dumbing down of the world. They've decided to ignore the freaking basics of medieval combat tactics.


ANd that's fine, but it's also totally unrealistic and very freaking lazy. It's not streamlining, it's dumbing down so players aren't limited as much by the choices they make, despite the entire freaking point of an RPG is choice and consequence. Morrowind was already rather light with respect to "consequences". Oblivion takes it totally out of the picture.


Do you think using a dagger is remotely the same as using a two-hander? Of course it isn't. The problem is that when there's only one blade skill, the implication is that a character that trains a lot with a butter knife will learn the ins and outs of fighting with a two-handed sword, eventually well enough that the character is a master at it, even if he's never held anything heavier than a butter knife. As before, this implication is plain silly and it ruins your suspension of disbelief if you think the least bit about it.


You're missing the point. I don't actually give a rat's ass if I can fly or not, but levitation forced the devs to design the world in a vertical perspective as well as a horizontal. They had to think in 3D and put in various secret places that you wouldn't notice. Without levitation, the designers could skip all that entirely. Now they only have to design a ground level and not think about vertical secrets and whatnot. Similarly, you now no longer have to worry if there's a place hidden somewhere around the roof. If you can't reach a place by jumping, there's nothing there, guaranteed. Makes it a ton easier to be a world designer but also means the game world becomes a lot more senseless.


It has little to do with preferences. I'm not trying to convince you that Morrowind is a better game. Such evaluations are subjective and it would make no sense to argue over it. It's like me saying that heavy metal is better than rap or classical music. What I am saying, and what is worth arguing about, is that gamesas intentionally dumbed down Oblivion to fit with the action gamer segment. A segment you're part of, and which doesn't really give a flying crap about the finer details of the game world. As long as the graphics are shiny, the combat is player-based and action-intensive, and the story doesn't require too much active thought, you're completely satisfied. That's fair enough, but it's also exactly what people mean when they suggest that Oblivion was dumbed down.

Let me round off by repeating that I don't think Oblivion was a bad game. Being dumbed down doesn't make it crap, it just makes it less convincing as an RPG.

Compass markers became necessary as soon as Bethesda decided to use Radiant AI. Unlike quest-giving NPCs in Morrowind quest NPCs in Oblivion wander. One quest NPC travels from Anvil over to the Imperial City, from the Imperial City over to Chorrol and from Chorrol all the way back again to Anvil. I would not want to hear the uproar on these forums if player after player after player could not find quest NPCs to turn in a quest. Sellus Gravius' instructions to travel to Balmora to meet with Caius Cosades worked in Morrowind because Caius Cosades never moved.




Bethesda didn't remove levitation to make the world easier to design, or to dumb down the game. Levitation could not be included because in Oblivion cities exist in interior cells. This is the same reason why levitation was disabled in Morrowind's Tribunal expansion. Now we can argue whether removing cities from the game world was a good idea but, having made that decision, they had no choice but to eliminate levitation.

The Open Cities mod has demonstrated that exterior cell cities do not reduce framerates on the computer so it's my belief that Bethesda removed cities from the game world to comply with the XBOX 360's framerate requirements. If this is true, then we have Microsoft to blame for levitation being removed from Oblivion.

I agree with the rest of your points, though.

edit: Nevermind, I don't make much sense when I'm sleepy.

Don't lump me with your imaginary "segment" of the Oblivion fanbase, thanks. I'm not a moron. You're suggesting that Oblivion was designed for idiots who can be distracted by flashy, colorful effects and "Press X to win" gameplay. Drop the condescending tone, and this crap about how "It's not bad, it's just a stupid game for stupid people."

Now then, once again in order:

See my spoiler with regard to the Main Quest. Have you ever broken into Vivec's Palace before you're supposed to? You can't interact with Vivec until you're supposed to, and you can't get to that point in the game if you murdered the essential NPCs. So the end result is the same-- if you want to actually see the MQ to completion, the essential NPCs can't die.

Now, a couple things with regard to the compass. First, and once again, you have the choice to use it. If it bothers you, don't pay attention to it. It's there as an option, nothing more. Giving the option for people who don't want to spend days searching for a cave isn't a bad thing. I'll concede that there should have been an option to turn it off if the player wanted to, but just because it's there doesn't mean that you're forced to use it. Second, the compass only leads you to major quest objectives. If you only ever follow it, and fast travel to your destination, you're going to miss out on a http://z.about.com/d/vgstrategies/1/0/Q/1/OblivionMapAGM_v1.1.jpg of content. While this may not matter to the person who doesn't have the time or patience to really explore the world, it makes a big difference to players like us (yes, believe it or not, I do like deep, imaginative game worlds and a compelling narrative).

Ah, so you're complaining that they stripped out weapon types. In a 2005 interview, Gavin Carter stated that "We've looked at the skill list and made it so it's a little easier for us to balance. So now there are 7 skills in each category, combat, magic and stealth. Each have 7 representative skills. For example, the blade skills are combined. So short blade and long blade are now only skill. But it works a bit better. So, there are a few more changes like that." http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Articles.Detail&id=5 Whether you believe him or not is a different matter, but if this system did in fact make it more balanced overall, then it's a better gameplay experience, and I'm willing to accept the tradeoff.

The point of an RPG is choice and consequence, typically in story terms. I don't think penalizing players for experimenting in terms of how they play is a good thing. A lot of your complaints seem to stem from the fact that you don't like that more people are able to get into the game and experience it this way. Not everyone is part of the elite clique of hardcoe gamers that you're lucky enough to belong to. I think you're missing the point a little bit. It annoys me how polarized and elitist the gaming community is, where if you don't like keyboard-snapping frustration, you're branded a "casual" gamer.

Now you see why I didn't place this in the TES General forum. It would have become this tactless nitpick battle by page one.

At least on the Morrowind forum it lasted a couple pages before degrading into smut.

Yeah, sounds good. I only think it's the greatest ever for the simple fact that no other game will ever come close.

1. To "not use" the compass in vanilla Oblivion would require me to partially blind myself or break/tape a portion of my monitor. There's no way to avoid looking at the glowing homing spoiler beacons now and then.

2. The world may have a lot of named locations but all those locations are going to lead to the same 4-5 dungeons because of level scaling and loot normalizing. There is *no* motivation to enter goblin fort 1 over goblin fort 2. You call that a lot of content?

3. Morrowind's weapon skills were poorly balanced. Oblivion's weapon skills were poorly balanced (like 80% of the special weapons are lolswords). It *really* isn't hard to balance weapons with each other, especially for the loose standards of a single player game. The excuse about wanting to pare down the weapons is silly. They just haven't tried.

Yes, the almighty Morrowind-ers are above all else in their greatness. How dare people actually like and defend Oblivion. It's smut, but constantly bashing the game is the zenith of civility and a symbol of high class. The fact is that yes, there are those who are biased towards Morrowind, and plenty of them, just as there are people biased towards Arena, towrds Daggerfall, towards Oblivion(although over in the Oblivion section, I have seen only respect for Morrowind, but I can't say the same for this section and respect for Oblivion, and no, it's not because Morrowind is better, but it's because many I see in the Oblivion section are friendly people who respect other peoples' opinions, yet receive only criticism in return), and everything else in existence. Everyone is biased, and that can't be avoided.

I don't think the quest compass in Oblivion mattered much. If a quest is properly written, then:

A) The action should focus on the actors in the quest, and not, like, all the time you spend trying to find them.
B) You should probably have sufficient information given to find the quest targets anyway.
C) If a quest doesn't rely on anything more than just search every nook and cranny of a dungeon for some object/NPC, it's probably going to be more tedious than fun.

Oblivion's main problem is that it's quests were all essentially C. Taking the quest compass out wouldn't have made them more interesting or involving or somehow require more thought from the player. That'd just artificially add length to them and probably make them more tedious. Complaining about the quest compass is missing the point.

1. Make your active quest a quest that has no quest marker.

2. I have seen some interesting things in Oblivion's dungeons. Have you ever been to Sideways Cave, Fort Urasek, Vilverin, Black Rock Caverns, or one of several other non-quest-related dungeons?

3. You constantly speak as if you always know better than Bethesda. Please take no offence at this statement, but you don't. They are getting paid to do this for a reason. Not everything is as simple as you seem to believe. If "fixes"(Oblivion's weapons are actually well-balanced) were so simple, Bethesda would have made those fixes.

I did . However, there's no way I found to shut of the markers that tell you where all the dungeons and landmarks and such are. That's really immersion breaking. I never felt like I was exploring.



I've been to 3 of those. They were interesting and unique.. but no more than any of the other dungeons, since I use OOO. I don't believe I visited them when I only had vanilla.



They are simple, and Bethesda didn't make them. I know this because I've *played* a game that has unique, interesting dungeons, and an immersive world, it's called Morrowind. I've *played* a game that offers a lasting challenge without resorting to the crutch of level scaling, it's called Might and Magic VI. Other fixes that I haven't seen used in other games I've modded into Oblivion myself, and they work very well - AFTER testing, changing, refining.. they certainly were all wrong when I first implemented them, but the theory was right.

As for balancing the weapons? Just take 30% of the swords and make them maces or axes. Maybe make maces/axes hit harder or have more enchanting points to make up for their slower speed (and therefore their slower rate of applying the effect enchanted to them). That's all they had to do. But they had a sword fetish.

Oblivion was very successful financially because Daggerfall and Morrowind made TES a legendary series. I admit I ran out and bought it before I saw any reviews. It also has by far the best modding system I've seen of any game, including other members of the TES series - which is why it's given me more hours of playtime than just about any other game. Even with my feeble modding skills I've been able to do most of what I want done.

Do not let your love for a game tempt you to ignore its flaws, or convince yourself that they cannot be fixed. Every game design problem has a solution.

Morrowind's dungeons were designed exactly the same way that Oblivion's were. They were each designed out of a limited number of tiles and statics, with a fairly limited variety of enemies to fight. The only difference is the level scaling, which I've always said was a mistake.

Also, I would argue that Oblivion's financial success was due to it being a fantastic game in its own right. If Bethesda had made Oblivion, but called it something like "The Adventures of Sword Man" and had it filled with "Funmer," "Eltmer" and "Gosmer", it would have been just as critically and financially successful because it's a great game.

EDIT: Also, if Oblivion wasn't an Elder Scrolls game, there would be far fewer pointless comparisons to Morrowind...

The only thing I can say is truly wrong and broken about Oblivion is the player-centric level scaling system. I understand the concept that Bethesda really wanted you to be able to "go anywhere and do anything" from the moment you step out of the sewers, but a game that levels with you has to offer a consistent challenge over the long haul. Eventually every character I played in vanilla Oblivion could out-damage or out-survive anything. Oscuro's Overhaul and mods like it changed the game world to be place-centric meaning there are some dangerous areas of the world where you simply can't go because you're guaranteed to get murdered. That's the kind of game I prefer: when I wander into a bandit's cave and have to run away screaming in retreat only to come back a few levels later and clean house. It makes for a fine feeling of accomplishment. There has to be some sense of danger and uncertainty beyond a damage-based difficulty slider.

As for this "dumbed-down" argument, I tend to think of Oblivion as the Grand Theft Auto of the Elder Scrolls series. GTA is famous for its sandbox-style gameplay in which you can go anywhere and do anything, but when you compare it to the real world you see that it's a stylistic false-reality. Certain rules aren't followed, the infrastructure of the world is invulnerable to your carnage, there is little to no emphasis put on NPC interaction. The whole game is designed for you to jump in and take off with a minimum of having to explain the "rules" of the fictional reality. More than the ability to go anywhere and do anything I've always identified the sandbox genre as being closely tied to the ability to just jump in and start playing.

Now, Elder Scrolls games have a bit of that sandbox element insofar as the world is completely open to you, but I think Oblivion leans heavily toward the GTA end of the spectrum. In Morrowind, for example, there was a greater emphasis placed on factions and reputation, the NPC's had a lot more to say, and the broader range of skills really allowed you to custom-tool your character to your exact play style preference. Oblivion seemed to homogenize certain skills like axes & blunt weapons, a combined blade skill, and such as a way to aid balance and reduce the amount of time spent puzzling over skill choices. Maybe this approach doesn't work for some, that's not the argument here. With the simplistic NPC's, focus on combat, simplified skills, quest markers, fast travel and lessened emphasis on factions I've always viewed Oblivion as an inferior game if judged solely on its merits as a character-driven RPG. It's more of a "jump right in" sort of game, more of an expansive action-RPG sandbox. That's not necessarily a bad thing. As has been repeated in this thread: if you don't like things such as quest markers & fast travel then don't use them. Skills may have been simplified, but just because your character exclusively uses daggers and as a byproduct of the Blade skill can also effectively swing a claymore doesn't mean he/she has to. The one-liner NPC's, well... that's another issue.

So, was Oblivion purposely "dumbed down?" There's no reason to be derogatory in labeling how the game was designed. Some people who play RPG's live for the numbers game: min/maxing their stats to get the most out of their abilities. Other people shirk that stuff solely for the experience of inhabiting another environment. Some people play just to advance the story of an IP they love. Consider Bethesda's position as a company that needs to make money, expand, and prosper. They have to cater to a wide range of tastes and their games need to be crafted in such a way as to appeal to the archetypes of players I mentioned above. I've heard Oblivion described as the RPG for Halo players. Now, maybe Oblivion's gameplay is a bit more simplified than Morrowind and certain other areas have been streamlined, but you can still play the number game, you can enjoy exploring Cyrodiil, you can advance the story through the main quest, you can still role play within the bounds of the game's parameters. I think what every RPG enthusiast wants deep down is a game as wide open and limitless as a Dungeons & Dragons session which, unfortunately, may never exist. You can't please everyone.

You simply use Immersive Interface to create your HUD and leave it off.

http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/9682/screenshot1ob.jpg

http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=4109

This truthfully belongs in TES General.

I think it's more of Oblivion simply being a more casual game then Morrowind is, or catering to the casual crowd moreso then Morrowind with features such as Fast Travel, an all-knowing quest marker, etc. It's alot easier to like Oblivion if you're a casual gamer, and casual gamers tend to be the people who sign up, post 10 times, and never come back.