Agreed. But...

The player's H2H is only 10, plus fatigue looks to be lower than 30%. Bad combo.

In your defense...

Why would any NPC just stand there while some schmuck plays the invisible speed bag in front of him? Not the combat system so much as it is the horrible AI.

In my defense...

I love this game this much;

[wasted 6 minutes of my life watching this video and laughing]WOW[/wasted 6 minutes of my life watching this video and laughing]

I ? Morrowind! :hugs:

Isn't the NPC in question specifically set to remain passive for that quest?

That bothered me too. He had to fight back and kick his ass. He shouldn't know what hit him.

Didn't watch the video, but sure, the combat may have a bad first impression.

But if you play like a battlemage as I do, it's not bad (at all) having the option levitate the [censored] up in air, raining havock on my enemies, then casting a slow fall spell and surfing down to finish him off with my longsword. As much as I love Oblvion, it don't have anything like that

Okay then.... first off, to the player standing there punching air: Stand NEARER, you doofus!!

(And don't tell me "he's already standing near enough" - if he wants to punch that guy so bad, he should be standing close enough to smell his breath!)

Second: the player is level 5. The guy-to-be-punched is level 40. The player has a hand-to-hand skill of 10. That's a little like Justin Beiber trying to chin Mike Tyson - would YOU expect the little singing muppet to win? No, exactly. That's why the guy's just standing there doing nothing instead of trying to 'defend himself.' I mean, why the heck should he bother? (Although I guess Bethesda could've added a 'wet himself laughing' animation to the NPC for just this occasion.)

A bad workman always blames his tools, the saying goes. When he's a big boy of.... oooh, maybe at least level ten, with a hand-to-hand skill of... well, let's go nuts here and say maybe - 20!!! - this player can live out his dream of being the kick-ass super-bad hero he's clearly destined to be. Until then.... well, just keep eating the weetabix and practising on the cat, chummy... :rolleyes:

Quit saying he's not close enough, when he hit, the yellow bar appeared over his health bar, obviously meaning he's close enough.

And i'm not really bashing on the combat, I just find it funny that in Morrowind, obviously hitting someone counts as a miss, even if you see your fist make contact

Eh, I like Morrowind's combat system. Other than Dragon Age's, it's my favorite version of in-game combat, as it's based off of character skill rather than player skill.

It's not an excuse. It's actually a system where it's 95% character stats, like it should be in an RPG.

When your attack goes right through your enemy, it's actually either a miss or a dodge. If Morrowind had dodge and miss animations, it would have been perfect. Certainly better than Oblivions' always-hit system.

Take what Nextmastermind said, he used Dragon Age as an example, a game which came out around 7 years later. It's exactly like Morrowind's system only there are dodge and miss animations. It's such an easy concept to grasp.

I think what turned a lot of people off from Morrowind's system was the fact that you click for every swing, whereas, in other RPGs, you click your character once, then watch him swing until the thing is dead.

I guess nothing like it had really come out on xbox before, so people had nothing to compare it to. I admit it confused me, too, when I first played it. I'm not sure what's wrong with the people who can't figure it out today, though. There are so many RPGs on consoles now.

You not bashing on the combat? Really now? What is your point if you are not trying to anger us? I don't see the humour in your posts at all. You were told, low level character, with no training with low level skills. That explanation not good enough? The game being 8 years or more dosn't have anything to do with it either? So you comparing an 8 year old game to a current game?

So please explain to me why a baby can't drive a car, or fly an airplane. From your explanations about Morrowind combat, then Oblivion combat would mean a baby can ride a horse, or weild a sword and hit people and damage them then.

Just because you hit someone dosn't mean you damage them. Just because it dosn't show it, there is also other skills and events that happen that we don't know about because it's behind the scenes. Again as people said, the computer does the dice rolling. Do you really want to see the dice roll over the persons head to see what the results were?

So again, if you are not here to flame what is your intention? If you are not bashing by the title "Morriwnd Combat Fail" in capitals none the less, what are you trying to accomplish?

Why all the fuss? MW has character skill combat while other games like OB have player skill combat. In MW your stats will determine if you're good at combat, not how good you are at pressing some buttons.

That is how the game engine works and if you dont like it, dont play it.

I think the problem is how the combat LOOKED. It is a bit silly to "miss" something while you are obviosly hitting it. But hey, a good game is not about having shiny gfx and / or animations!

Doesn't a high fatigue make them even better for training? It means you get to hit the creature more... which means you get more point overall for killing it. I know I gained about 10 points in h2h on one rat in vivec... I would leave everytime my health got low, go heal, then go in again.

The second part of your first statement couldn't be more false.

Morrowind's weapon skills-determine chance to hit

Oblivion's weapon skills-determine damage dealt

With that said, I don't dislike Morrowind's combat, but that false claim of Oblivion being based on player skill is just that, a false claim. I don't prefer either game's way of doing it, but they are both character skill based. I do prefer Oblivion's animations, though, of course, as well as choosing when to block. There's no reason why I shouldn't be able to attempt to block in a first-person, real-time RPG when I want. I do prefer Daggerfall's combat to Morrowind's though. In Daggerfall, when an attack isn't successful, I hear a clashing metal sound, giving off the impression of my enemy's armor protecting them rather than just hitting my enemy and nothing happening, as in Morrowind.

I understand that people get upset when people bash and completely misunderstand a combat system they like, but turning around and bashing/misunderstanding Oblivion's combat system in the same, exact way is no better.

Without trying to bash OB or its combat, blocking is a player skill, you said it yourself.
OB combat has its good parts but i prefer MW

Dragon Age has extremely tactical battles that keep you very engaged throughout the entire course of most encounters if you want any hope of surviving. Maybe it's just that I tend to play melee characters in Morrowind, but there's not much thinking to do in Morrowind's combat, other than to quaff a potion at an opportune moment.

Incidentally, Oblivion's always-hit system means you have to be aware of what your opponent is doing when you swing your sword. Hit a blocking opponent and you're likely to be staggered, leaving yourself vulnerable. It's not amazing, but it does keep you more engaged.

That's a good point.

Swords are HEAVY.

If you don't have the strength/ experience to lift that sword up and swing it with the right momentum, there's no way you'll even break skin on your enemy, granted they don't jump out of the way.

It's a "Morrowind Combat Fail" because he punches the guy literally 100 times, and misses every hit. I'm bashing on the player, not the combat itself.

But if you want my opinion that badly, I don't care if it doesn't do damage or effect them. But let's at least see CONTACT. Let's see the NPC he's hitting reacting to the punches at least, even if they really don't have any effect (10 year old punching a wrestler, for example). I don't like that obviously making contact counts as a "Miss", without any reaction from the NPC.

Frankly, I want to see a dodge animation from the enemies, or a tiny stagger, some kind of animation. I'm bashing on that. Not the system.

When we compare things we generally compare things that are alike. We do not usually compare things that are unalike ("apples and oranges") because such comparisons usually yield little in the way of useful data. We either need to compare the chance-to-hit of both games or the damage dealt of both games.

Morrowind's chance-to-hit was determined by a combination of player skill (one needed to aim competently) and character skill (assuming one had aimed properly, the game proceeded to compute chance-to-hit based on character skill). Oblivion's chance-to-hit, on the other hand, is controlled solely by player skill. And this is why Oblivion's combat system is often referred to as mainly first-person-shooter combat. Character skill is not a factor in a character's chance of hitting a target.

Oblivion's damage dealt was determined by character skill in both Morrowind and Oblivion.

In Oblivion the chance-to-block is also controlled solely by player skill, making this too a first-person shooter combat mechanic.

What can we conclude from this? Both games feature hybrid roleplaying/first-person shooter combat. There is, however, a significantly higher percentage of first-person shooter combat in Oblivion than there is in Morrowind.

So its mostly just a choice of personal taste as to which one is better than the other, I do find Oblivion's combat more engaging myself do to the fact that its all done by you the player. Then again Morrowinds combat is better for the rpg style of gaming and will not alow a low level character with crap stats to do amazing just because of player reflexes. Double edged sword, though seeing more "reactions" in Morrowind would always be good.

Weapon skill does not determine damage dealt in Morrowind, not at all. It really doesn't. Strength does, but weapon skill does not. In Oblivion strength also affects damage dealt, but so does weapon skill. Again:

In Morrowind, weapon skill determines chance to hit, and only chance to hit
In Oblivion, weapon skill determines damage dealt, and only damage dealt.

Neither of those are a more RPG-oriented system. Yes, you choose when to block in Oblivion, but it breaks up a system of click as fast as you can and in Morrowind, you have fancy footwork to do for the different attack types. In Oblivion, you have one type of normal attack. There's a little less player skill. Yes, different power attacks also do different things in Oblivion, depending on which type of power attack it is, but Morrowind's power attacks do, as well, by building up on the original fancy footwork system. Overall...

Morrowind-weapon skill determines chance to hit, different regular attacks based on player choice exist, different power attacks based on player choice exist

Oblivion-weapon skill determines damage dealt, only one type of regular attack exists, different power attacks based on player choice, but character skill to even unlock them, exist, can choose when to block

Morrowind:
player skill based-different regular attacks(vary in damage dealt), different power attacks(vary in damage dealt, depend on player's ability to gamble on chance to hit vs. damage dealt), aiming
character skill based-chance to hit, chance to block

Oblivion:
player skill based-choose when to block, different power attacks, that require character skill to unlock, however, aiming
character skill based-damage dealt, efficient-ness of blocking, ability to use different power attacks

How is one to argue that one is more player skill based than the other? They break just about even.

Hey look, it's another one of those "my game has no faults" guys.

When I can kill anything without much in-game skill, I know the game is far too player skill based. If I go to a sixth house base in Morrowind, I'll get slaughtered. If I go to Oblivion at level 1, which I'm expected to, I'll kill everything. And yes, level scaling helps make a game player based.

Oh, and i don't remember the last time I juct "clicked as fast as I can" in morrowind. I had to choose a good moment to attack. Performing a slower attack would give me a higher amount of damage.

Morrowind has power attacks? :huh:

"player skill based-different regular attacks(vary in damage dealt)" Umm... What?


Anyway, Oblivion has faults, and one of them is the combat system, to those who prefer character skill in thier RPG's, which are about living another life, which has no magical god control thier every action. Morrowind has faults, the combat system isn't one of them. Assuming you enjoy RPG's.

This is a very internally inconsistent statement, Morrowind has your attacks missing wildly precisely because of a dice god controlling all of your actions. Also, how or why are you choosing a good moment to attack? Blocking is controlled purely by dice, you have no control over it what-so-ever and enemies don't telegraph when they're going to block, so how can it possibly matter when you attack?

First thing, let's see this like in real life:
If you have almost no skill and simply charge an enemy who's actually skilled, you'd get killed within no time. You even won't get a chance to strike him, because you'll be dead, way faster then in a game, Oblivion or Morrowind. I've done some fencing and hand-to-hand combat and I know how fast this goes. Maybe a group of four or five grunts would have a statistical chance of killing an experienced fighter at the cost of loosing two to four men, but not one on one (except some HUGE luck, but that's a chance of maybe less than five percent). You also do not work like a char with a health bar. Even while your char will continue to fight at 100% with only a singe HP left, you won't. Most probably you'll go down after a singe, even if not a deadly strike. And the damage is mostly based upon the weapon and if you actually manage to hit your enemy. A claymore to the head will bring down your enemy, it's only the point that you need to actually hit him with that.

tl:dr You go against a high-level enemy, he'll cut you down before you can do the same to him. A strong weapon may be cool, but swung like a wet handkerchief, it's just as useful.


Now, in the game terms:
Morrowind, like most RPGs, simple calculates the chances for both fighters and determinates if someone scores a hit. The skill of the player is irrelevant, only the stats and attribs of your char count. The only difference to games like NWN, BG, WoW. etc. is that there are no animations for dodging/parrying.
Oblivion uses the FPS approach, which uses the skill of the player, not of the char, to determinate a hit. If YOU have a slow reaction time or aiming problems, your bad. Your char's skill only scales the damage or something like that.

tl:dr the RPG approach: your char fights with HIS stats (third-person view, party-managing); FPS: you fight THROUGH your char with your abilities, but some minor adjustments (first-person view)


Thus, the perfect system would be the possibility to switch between the systems with maybe something in-between. The FPS system is easier to implement and easier to use (especially for newcomers) and the RPG system is more mature in terms of tactics and factors involved. Also, some people will always prefer one system over the another, despite all arguments exchanged.

No... The dice rolls emulate how good you are with a weapon. If I went to fight some proffesional fencer, I would never hit him. Not once, because I have no skill. It's exactly the same in Morrowind. If I have no skill, I can't hit. If I do have sill, however, I CAN hit. And If I have skill, and my enemy doesn't (Though it never happens, NPC's aren't morons who use weapons they don' t know how to use), roles are reversed. They can't hit me, and I can hit them easily.


If I attack fast, I'll do low damage. If I wait a second or so, I'll do a stronger attack. It is, again, like in real life. Often, you can sacrifice power for speed, and vice versa.